Leita says…Beauty Brains, I would like to see your opinion in regards to the points made in Jante’s and Rosa’s posts. Right now, I can’t help but feel you’re ignoring these arguments because they’re so full of win.
Left Brain gets prickly:
Thanks for the comments Leita. We didn’t ignore the comments due to a lack of response. We just don’t always have time to go through every comment on every subject and discuss every point.
A lack of response does not indicate agreement.
I find acupuncture particularly troubling, so I’ll address their comments now.
Pointed
comments
Jante & Rosa made the following points. You can go back to the comments section of our cosmetic acupuncture post for their entire comments.
Anecdotal Nonsense
“I can’t imagine why Beauty Brain relies solely on her own opinion and others’ poor research for questioning the efficacy of acupuncture, especially when she has never had it herself.”
Our own experiences are a terrible way to make judgments about whether something actually works or not. People are easily fooled. We fill in blanks and falsely assign cause and effect relationships where there might not be. That makes magic tricks entertaining, but it’s practically worthless when it comes to determining truth.
Second, we don’t rely on poor research. We rely on the best peer reviewed research we can find.
Everybody’s doing it
“Why are hundreds of western MD’s now taking medical acpuncture courses at UCLA Medical school to learn this effective modality”
I really don’t know whether this is true but assuming it is, the most logical reason people are taking the course is because their customers are demanding it. They can make more money by offering the service. This says nothing about whether it actually works beyond the placebo effect or not. People, especially ones who don’t exercise critical thinking, are easily fooled.
Just because a large number of people believe something doesn’t make it true.
Argument from Antiquity
“In Asia, Acupuncture and Traditional Asian Medicine has effectively treated all kinds of medical problems for over 2,500 years…In contrast, Western medicine has been practiced a mere 200 years.”
Just because something is old doesn’t mean it’s true or effective. “Western” medicine has been responsible for increasing the human life expectancy from an average of 31 years to an average of over 70 years. This wasn’t achieved through ancient technologies, but through modern, science-based medicine.
Making things up
“over 250,000 people are killed annually by medical errors, including wrong medication, treatment and doctor error. It has become the third leading cause of death in this country.”
I checked. That’s not true. The third leading cause of death (according to the CDC) is stroke.
The claimed number of deaths due to medical error were between 44,000 and 98,000, but even this number is disputably high.
You’re wrong so I’m right
“Even revered journals such as JAMA and the New England Journal of Medicine have been found to contain biased, unsubstantiated opinions.”
You are absolutely correct that scientific literature is full of inaccuracies and mistakes. Those mistakes get filtered out after more experimenting and testing. That way, the knowledge gets more and more accurate. But just because medical research is often wrong doesn’t mean that acupuncture works. One person being wrong is not evidence that your beliefs are right.
Evil corporations
“The problem is, in this country, no one wants to pay for the research to be done because there is no money in it.”
I disagree. There is money in it which is exactly why doctors and HMOs are now offering this unproven treatment to patients. $150 a treatment? That sounds like money to me.
You just don’t understand
“It (acupuncture) is a deep and profound method of healing that goes beyond what most people can comprehend. It is based on the fundamental principle of Qi (chee) which has no Western equivalent.”
Qi is a made-up concept for which there is no supporting evidence. If it is true, where is the evidence? If one person can comprehend it, give the rest of us the evidence so we all can comprehend it. If physicists can get people to comprehend quantum physics, Qi believers should be able to give evidence to get others to comprehend this concept.
Skeptical beauty
“No wonder skeptics are quick to automatically say it doesn’t work.”
Skeptics aren’t quick to say it doesn’t work. There have been study after study after study which demonstrates acupuncture has no effect beyond a placebo effect. That is why skeptics say it doesn’t work. There’s no proof that it does!
Cosmetic Acupuncture
“Regarding cosmetic acupuncture, it will never replace a surgical face-lift. It wasn’t meant to. Two of the many things it will do, is promote the production and movement of qi and blood in the underlying tissues as well as cause a slight micro-trauma which increases collagen production.”
And your proof of this is what? We are supposed to believe it just because you say it is true?
Clinical studies
“Clinical studies presented by the National Institutes of Health (NIH) have shown that acupuncture is an effective treatment for nausea caused by surgical anesthesia and cancer chemotherapy, as well as for dental pain after surgery.”
There have been a number of clinical studies about acupuncture. If you look at the study design, the ones that show positive benefits have no placebo controls. When you add a placebo control, acupuncture is not more effective than a fake placebo treatment. Millions of dollars have gone into studying acupuncture. The conclusion…it doesn’t work better than a placebo.
Beauty Brains bottom line
For the most part, we love to see companies offering alternatives to the same old wrinkle treatments everyone sells. But it hurts to see people wasting their money on things that have not been shown to be effective. Cosmetic acupuncture, and general acupuncture, still have not been proven effective. They are still, most likely, a waste of money.
Have you had acupuncture? What did you think of the effects? Is it worth doing as a beauty treatment? Leave your comments below.
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{ 31 comments… read them below or add one }
Thank you for this very clear and thoughtful response to the questions and explanation of evidence-based treatment.
Acupuncture is the one aspect of “Eastern” medicine that I have never tried and probably will never try. I love chiropractors, but acupuncture? No thanks.
Another thing with “Eastern” medicine is that textbooks and standards have not evolved and progressed when it should be. There’s no reason not to apply the same “Western” scientific methods to research efficacy of procedures or medicine.
I’m not disagreeing with anything in the post, but I would like to say that Western medicine uses a lot of things (i.e.) medications no more effective than placebos as well.
(Look up Drug Companies & Doctors: A Story of Corruption on nybooks.com for a disturbing read!)
Some recent articles:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/01/090120204801.htm
(and related story)
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2008/12/yet_another_acupuncture_metaanalysis_gar.php
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/11/081112194913.htm
http://www.google.com/cse?cx=017254414699180528062%3Auyrcvn__yd0&q=acupuncture+site%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fscienceblogs.com%2Finsolence%2F&sa=Search
I’ll paraphrase something I saw a while ago: If studies show at the 95% confidence level that hypothesis A is true, then 5% of studies will show it isn’t. So if we search 1,000 studies and cherry pick the ones we want, we’ll come up with a whopping 50 studies that support the false hypothesis!
I’ve been going to acupuncture for about 2 years. It has improved my hormonal acne so much — now I get 2 small pimples that go away in 3 days per month instead of 5-6 deep cystic pimples that would last over a week. And I’ve tried EVERYTHING else — Murad, ProActiv, Philosophy, Neutrogena, the pill, etc.
In December, I started a round of cosmetic acupuncture on my face. My goals were to minimize the appearance of my acne scarring and to lighten several sun spots. Although they did not disappear, there is a VAST improvement in those areas, and my under-eyes are much less puffy than they were before. My skin felt taut afterwards every time, so I can imagine it would be good for wrinkles too.
Here’s the thing — you have to go about twice a week for a month before you see real results with cosmetic acupuncture. I now go twice a month for acne control and the results have held up!
I’m confused about why this article is ‘against’ what I’m saying? Only 1 of your points is against something I said…
Also, while we’re talking about how the NIH isn’t using ‘good articles’ to support its data, do you know which articles exactly the NIH is referring to? They don’t cite their sources on the site I was referring to, and I suppose it’s my mistake if I didn’t look up every single article they drew their conclusions from. (And I’m not sure how you manage to do that?) But in any case, honestly, I’m sure they didn’t pull together an article on acupuncture from random bad papers.
I’m always disappointed by the inevitable comclusions about acupuncture. I really wish it DID work; I’ve got joint pain that is supposedly perfect for it, but it just doesn’t DO anything. *sigh* Back to the aspirin.
I suppose it’s my mistake if I didn’t look
up every single article they drew their conclusions from.
Frankly, yes it is. Doctors do that — because they are messing with human bodies and human lives. If you are going to want to be admired and respected like a doctor, then act like one. If you’re going to pretend to play games with peoples bodies adn lives, take it seriously. I bet there’s lots of math and scary words in those articles, too — Tough. Learn them. There’s a reason why doctors and surgeons go tens of thousands of dollars in debt and spend decades learning their trade, because it’s HARD. And because people’s lives depend on it. If you are going to act like you hold someone’s life or health in your hand, you’d damned well better be prepared to do at least a little demanding reading. Medicine ain’t beanbag.
Harriet Hall of Skeptic magazine recently did a really good article about accupuncture.
Some points;
1. Traditional Chinese Medicine isn’t so traditional. Mao’s government created the phrase in the 60’s in an effort to give China health care, without actually having to pay for quality health care.
2. More positive studies about acupuncture are released from Asian countries than from the West because publishing a negative article is the equivalent of losing face.
3. It’s hard to measure subjective things like nausea and pain, hence it’s hard to measure pain relief.
4. In the best studies of accupuncture, it’s been revealed that all that mattered is whether the subjects believed in the efficacy of acupuncture. It didn’t even matter *where* the needles were placed (I guess the qi is very cooperative).
Hall sums acupuncture up best as, “You can play human pincushion if you want, and you might get a good placebo response, but there’s no evidence you’ll get anything more.”
I have been treated by an acupuncturist for a chronic ‘female problem’ with success. I referred a friend with Krone’s disease. She was helped greatly.
Qi is a made-up concept for which there is no supporting evidence.
YOU’RE AN ATHEIST THEN
If it is true, where is the evidence? If one person can comprehend it, give the rest of us the evidence so we all can comprehend it. If physicists can get people to comprehend quantum physics, Qi believers should be able to give evidence to get others to
comprehend this concept
MOST PEOPLE DO NOT COMPREHEND QUANTUM PHYSICS, NOR THE THEORY OF RELATIVITY- DOES NOT MEAN THEY DO NOT EXIST.
ALSO THERE HAS BEEN MANY INSTANCES OF PEER REVIEW FRAUD.
I have a pathological fear, almost a phobia about needles going into flesh, so for many years wouldn’t even contemplate acupuncture. Then I ended up in hospital with such a severe sinus blockage that I couldn’t stand up and was wheeled into the A&E room in a wheelchair.
None of the drugs that I had been taking worked and I refuse to take steroids every day. Just not healthy.
So I plucked up the courage and gave Acupuncture a try. The results were so dramatic that I looked a lot younger because the bags under my eyes were reduced and my skin tone looked a whole lot better. Just the pain relief gave me a lift and (obviously) when we smile, we seem younger. It could never replace a surgical face-lift for me because it involves needles going into flesh and I do think that one would have to do this on an ongoing basis.
Our Government has actually made it a law that our country’s medical schemes pay for Acupuncture. Whether it is ’scientific’ or not….it did work for me. Unbeliever that I was.
Wow. I subscribed to this blog some time ago because I am also very interested in the science behind beauty, but I think I will remove this feed from my GoogleReader because I simply don’t appreciate the tone of this post.
The tone that is used above is condescending, unacademic, and not one that excites me about beauty.
Just because you are not convinced of the efficacy of a procedure does not mean you should write (or expand upon) such a biased peice.
Next time, try to talk about both sides of a topic.
I don’t know much about cosmetic acupuncture, but my parents have had a lot of success using acupuncture to treat inflammation and muscle knots and spasms. My father tried it first, when he had carpal tunnel and was in so much pain he couldn’t sleep at night. His surgery was scheduled for three months out, and so our HMO paid for acupuncture for the pain. He really didn’t want to go but my mom made him, and after two months his carpal tunnel was completely reversed and he didn’t need surgery. Both parents have had acupuncture for back injuries with good success, although my mom had a back spasm once that didn’t respond to the treatment. I think acupuncture gets tossed around with a lot of pseudoscience, but personally I don’t think my dad’s case is indicative of placebo and my mom has definitely had mixed results even though she’s a “true believer.” It’s not the miracle treatment people hold it up to be, but I think it can be an effective treatment for specific conditions.
@Rachel – So sorry you were offended by Left Brain’s comments. I’m sure no offense was meant.
I try to keep an opened mind about things and am still looking to be convinced that acupuncture is real.
It would take a lot of studies to convince Left Brain
The Beauty Brains are skeptics of Acupuncture because of scientific studies that have proven it is nothing more than a PLACEBO EFFECT.
Placebos have been shown to actually have significant positive effects on people’s physical wellbeings. The mind is a powerful thing.
Just because a person is a skeptic going in doesn’t mean they won’t feel placebo effects.
I think that’s all I have to say. I would hope that people read your blog for the scientific truth, instead of reading for what they want to hear.
i have to agree with everything that rachael said in her post.
i too felt that that the tone was a bit condescending.
i have used accupunture in the past to treat a shoulder pain and sinus problems and i can say that in regards to the beauty aspect of it i could see how having a face being less swollen is a good thing.
@ Rachael/Monica
Oh please grow up. Left brain wrote a brilliant piece that pointed out the fallacies of the posts she was replying to. Her post was logical, friendly and helpful. Now, here’s the thing… You are allowed to disagree with her, but don’t go whining that you thought she was rude. We are all adults here and I for one am capable of seeing something I disagree with while not being offended by it.
And for all those who have tried acupunture and found it worked. Well, I have a friend who lost a finger and had months of acupunture for the pain. It didn’t help. What does this prove? Nothing. What do your stories prove? Nothing. The only thing that proves anything is a properly controlled scientifuc trial, of which there have been many. The plural of anecdote isn’t data. The placebo effect is a strange and very powerful thing which can cause real changes to your physiology. There is nothing wrong with admitting that you may have been made to feel better by the placebo effect. This site is called The Beauty BRAINS, how about employing some good ol’ fashion brain power instead of wishful thinking?
science is a religion for westerners.
Yes, f, you’re exactly right. And by right, I mean you’re wrong.
When something arises that conflicts with a scientist’s worldview, and there’s adequate evidence to support it, then the scientist adopts the new evidence. Religion is the oppisite of this, it’s authoritarian and dogmatic by nature.
Moxie, for an awful lot of people they think science and religion both consist of a person using a whole lot of big words, then reaching a conclusion. WHAT big words you use, and if they are even vaguely well joined together, means nothing to them. Say baffling things, then assert correctness, that’s all they hear, because they aren’t really trying to understand or analyze the stuff that comes before, “And that’s why I’m correct.” It’s preposterous and disheartening. People are allergic to thinking, really closely thinking, about anything.
Janis, that’s true. I’m willing to admit that there was a time, not too long ago, when science could be very dogmatic and was the domain of old white men. That has changed a lot. Any scientist worth their sodium is willing to change their opinions when presented with proper evidence.
Firstly, I would like to thank the Beauty Brains for being so polite in answering my question, as I was in a pissy mood when I wrote it.
Your argument brings good points that I haven’t thought of before. I’m still neutral on the subject, though.
I realize that this article is posted on a website for alternative medicine, but think it’s interesting nonetheless: http://www.medicalacupuncture.org/acu_info/interviews/pomeranzart.html
for her whole life my best friend suffered from severe allergies every spring and tried every prescription and OTC drug and nasal spray available, to no success. finally at the age of 30 she decided to give acupuncture a try. mind you, she is an even biggest skeptic (if at all possible) than left brain.
after five sessions she was allergy medication free for the first time ever.
it is entirely possible that western science has simply not yet come to an understanding of why the procedure works the way it does, on the people that it does. by simply accounting for all the acupuncture success stories with the blanket explanation “it must be the placebo effect” is not only condescending, but ignorant as well.
also, left brain, it seems that your literature review was directed primarily at western literature and studies found on pubmed or ovid. as many have suggested, applying western methodologies to study an eastern technique is about as sensical as using mathematics to explain law.
perhaps you should educate yourself further on the issue by reviewing literature from the east or by speaking with a professional acupuncturist.
@open – you’ve provided a great example of a placebo effect. Since there is scientific proof that the placebo effect is real, how is it ignorant to explain your friend’s result as the placebo effect? What scientific evidence do you have that it was something else?
There is no Eastern knowledge and Western knowledge. There is just things that are supported by evidence & things that are not supported by evidence. Learning the details of a fairy tale doesn’t seem like a good use of anyone’s time.
When someone can show a properly designed, scientific study that shows acupuncture having an effect that is greater than just a placebo, I’d be happy to “educate” myself on what they did. Until then, I’m not wasting time on non-scientific nonsense.
@Leita -thanks for the link. It just goes to show you that just because someone has a PHD that doesn’t mean they aren’t susceptible to non-scientific thinking.
left brain,
i think your harsh response to my comments above verifies exactly what i said about being condescending and ignorant, and i would appreciate you not calling a very real practice “nonsense”. your tone smacks of racism and ignorance, and given your level of education, i expect more.
your words indicate that you are quite angry about this technique that has not “proven” itself to the western scientific method — a method that, if you participated in research at all, you would know is flawed and skewed in so many ways.
i will repeat what i said earlier, in the hope that you will be able to work past your anger — please educate yourself on the eastern tradition further before attacking it so callously.
@open – Your tendency to hurl insults and ad hominems demonstrates your lack of acceptance of a logical thought process and betray some bitterness that you perhaps feel.
You seem more interested in insults than education. If the method is effective (beyond a simple placebo effect), please provide proof and stop wasting time with insults and personal attacks.
If I am to educate myself, what sources should I consult to become educated?
I don’t really see any non-scientific thinking on behalf of Mr. PhD, but that might come from a slant on my own. Please explain your opinion.
(First, sorry for the double post. I posted this in your first acupuncture article by mistake.)
Using acupuncture for facial “rejuvination” seems completely silly to me. This is merely people trying to capitalize on the CAM fad through people’s vanity. We agree there. However, I am undecided on acupuncture as a CAM treatment for other conditions.
These are the reasons I’m undecided and will continue to wait for more studies:
1. There is evidence that it may not be effective compared to similarly designed placebos.
2. It likely doesn’t work from the mechanism originally thought. (No big surprise there. New science usually bests older untested theory.)
3. There are some studies that have shown it works better than a non-sham-acupuncture placebo, and occasionally there is a study showing it works better than conventional medicine.
4. Much much more study is needed. It needs to be double blind and placebo controlled. Placebos should themselves be inert. (If one placebo gives a clinically significant positive result as compared to another placebo or traditional medication, that is evidence that the placebo is not inert and therefore not producing a “placebo effect.”)
I also want to know why you have ignored the information from the NIH that one user posted. Surely, this is a legitimate source.
The jury is still out on acupuncture, and I’m not ready to dismiss it completely. I do believe there MAY be some legitimate uses for acupuncture, but it may be years before we know for sure. In the meantime, as long as you use a qualified practitioner who uses fresh needles every time and don’t have any contraindications (there are a couple), acupuncture is perfectly safe to use in addition to conventional treatment or after all conventional options have been exhausted. (Personally, I would not use any alternative treatment INSTEAD of conventional medicine, but that’s just me.)
More studies need to be done, older studies need to be replicated, and there needs to be a way to design better sham acupuncture techniques, which is a problem when trying to design placebos for these studies. Even the NIH has said that there are difficulties in using sham acupuncture as a placebo. I am posting the conclusion from the NIH consensus statement on acupuncture below. Follow this link to find more information about research techniques and sham acupuncture: http://consensus.nih.gov/1997/1997Acupuncture107html.htm
NIH Consensus Statement:
Conclusions
Acupuncture as a therapeutic intervention is widely practiced in the United States. There have been many studies of its potential usefulness. However, many of these studies provide equivocal results because of design, sample size, and other factors. The issue is further complicated by inherent difficulties in the use of appropriate controls, such as placebo and sham acupuncture groups.
However, promising results have emerged, for example, efficacy of acupuncture in adult post-operative and chemotherapy nausea and vomiting and in postoperative dental pain. There are other situations such as addiction, stroke rehabilitation, headache, menstrual cramps, tennis elbow, fibromyalgia, myofascial pain, osteoarthritis, low back pain, carpal tunnel syndrome, and asthma for which acupuncture may be useful as an adjunct treatment or an acceptable alternative or be included in a comprehensive management program. Further research is likely to uncover additional areas where acupuncture interventions will be useful.
Findings from basic research have begun to elucidate the mechanisms of action of acupuncture, including the release of opioids and other peptides in the central nervous system and the periphery and changes in neuroendocrine function. Although much needs to be accomplished, the emergence of plausible mechanisms for the therapeutic effects of acupuncture is encouraging.
The introduction of acupuncture into the choice of treatment modalities readily available to the public is in its early stages. Issues of training, licensure, and reimbursement remain to be clarified. There is sufficient evidence, however, of its potential value to conventional medicine to encourage further studies.
[b]There is sufficient evidence of acupuncture’s value to expand its use into conventional medicine and to encourage further studies of its physiology and clinical value.[/b] (emphasis mine… if xml tags work…)
[end quote from NIH]
I’m also posting an article from Science Daily about a recent acupuncture article that did not show acupuncture as successful. The article is helpful because it talks about one of the problems with sham acupuncture procedures, the weaknesses in current studies (not enough double-blinded, placebo controlled studies), and the weakness in the study itself (did not contain a third control that does not use sham acupuncture.) Here is the link and a quote from the article:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/11/081112194913.htm
“The meta-analysis showed that acupuncture on the day of embryo transfer leads to a significantly higher pregnancy rate when compared to controls. But in the vast majority of the studies included in the meta-analysis, the controls received no acupuncture and the patients were not blinded. My current study compared real and placebo acupuncture in a double blind setting, which should be the ideal model in research. However, the results suggest that placebo acupuncture may not be inert.”
Here is a link to another study in which the real acupuncture is not shown to be more effective than the sham acupuncture: http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/news/fullstory_74040.html
The interesting point here is that the sham and the real acupuncture BOTH WORK better than the preventative drugs in some trials. This is a fascinating quote:
“Skeptics,” Linde said, might consider this to be a sign that acupuncture works only by placebo effect — that is, patients think their pain is better because they’ve received the therapy. [b]But, he added, the fact that acupuncture bested preventive drugs in some trials suggests otherwise. [/b]
“So it is effective,” Linde said, “but other mechanisms besides correct location of needles seem to have a major role.”
(again, emphasis mine if xml works)
[end quote]
Lastly, I feel your comment to the nurse was very dismissive, almost to the point of being mean. Was that really necessary? The nurse freely admitted that she had tried western conventional medicine first, and it did not work for her. Yes, the placebo effect happens in knowledgeable people as well as those who are less well informed, but there is SOME evidence that acupuncture DOES work. The nurse did not automatically dismiss western medicine or science, as many people here have. The nurse did not suggest that there isn’t some placebo effect at work at least some of the time. She did not use the same tired arguments of testimonials (other than her own), claiming it’s worked for many people without evidence to back it up, or claiming that alternative medicine is “better” because it has been used for thousands of years, blah, blah, blah. She merely offered her experience, and you came across as accusing her of lying, when you could have acknowledged the placebo effect as a possibility rather than the definitive cause of her relief. Gee, how scientific of you.