Helen says… I’ve been told the new Paul Penders Natural Organic Products are better because they’re cold processed. Is this true?
The Left Brain gleefully responds:
If you’re worried about truthfulness in Penders products, cold processing is the least of your concerns. There’s so much exaggeration involved with this line I don’t even know where to start. But I guess I’ll force myself.
Penders products
First, for those of you who might now know, Paul Penders is based in the Netherlands and has been selling natural cosmetics for over 35 years. There’s certainly nothing wrong with that but when a company makes claims that seem to be without a solid scientific foundation I feel compelled to comment.
Chill pill
I’ll begin with the cold processing comment. According to his website, Penders says normally, cosmetics are heat processed in temperatures that can exceed 40 degrees C. But this type of processing can significantly diminish the effectiveness of many active ingredients. While it’s true that some cosmetics are heated above 40 degrees C, that isn’t necessarily a problem. That’s because not all ingredients are heat sensitive and for those that ARE, all you have to do is add them to the formula after it cools down. Problem solved. Cold processing sounds good, but it’s really just a marketing gimmick.
Silver bells and whistles
The next big issue in my mind is the emphasis on natural raw materials. Besides a host of extracts, the products contain colloidal gold and silver that actively and naturally sustain healthy skin. That’s just ridiculous. There’s no evidence that gold or silver is beneficial for skin in the context of typical cosmetic benefits (Silver does have certain anti-microbial but that’s another story.)
Penders also claims that all of the new Natural Organic Products are holistically and ethically produced, with no chemical colors, foam-boosters, emulsifiers, or harsh preservatives. At a glance, at least one of these claims is not quite true: his Natural Organic Low Suds shampoo uses laureth decyl polyglucose, a corn-derived surfactant that is most certainly used to boost foam. But hey, it’s got 22 natural herbs and it’s only $17.00 per bottle, that’s less than $1.00 per herb!
Finally, we’re not sure what holistically produced products are, but we question the ethics of fear-mongering and misleading consumers with overpriced promises.
The Beauty Brains bottom line
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. If Pender has evidence of efficacy of these natural ingredients we’d be glad to review it.
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{ 43 comments… read them below or add one }
A one-word comment. BRAVO!
Well said! So often a purchase is a small part reality and a large part emotion. For we people of science…. a support group would be good….. or sedation please.
Hi Cynthia and Marly…
I understand your comments. Also, I like the website of Beauty Brains and some times read it with pleasure especially when good information is provided. But they like to be little mean on Paul Penders products.
We are not ‘a company selling cosmetics for 35 years products in The Netherlands’. We proudly manufacture in our cGMP licensed factory and actually do NOT sell them ourselves
We are no marketers and we are no sales people ourselves. FYI too, I am a proud American and located in the US in SFBay area for over 25 years and few years ago moved to a beautiful small rainforest island in Malaysia for obvious reasons (what the Beauty Brains of course will make sound like a laughable reason as well).
We employ same professionals as the Beauty Brains who are university trained. Only handful small cosmetic companies have their own R&D department but Paul Penders proudly has, despite the huge amount it takes to keep doing this work and do our own research.
About their comment on the cold-pressed mixing issue…. who did they convince with their answer? themselves maybe? Is it not obvious that heat can destroy few important qualities of certain high quality ingredients? Some ingredient suppliers even recommend doing the same? Maybe the Beauty brains do not know these things?
They never contacted me. Although they could. I am no chemist myself, but we meet as many cosmetics chemists do, at the meetings of ingredient suppliers at the east and west coast in the US, or in other parts of the world.
Much of the information the Beauty Brains bring up today is rather old stuff and anyone looking up http://www.paulpenders.com today will find more updated beliefs. I was told that the Beauty Brains had an article not long ago that made cheap fun of my “shampoo parties” we did for many years in Holland to test our shampoos on real people! Not what they did these days on innocent animals what I have witnessed with my own eyes and that horrible most stupid thing changed my life entirely. Also they made fun I believe about the convent of 60 nuns who lovingly offered to be guinnypigs to test our products in hopes to convince the Dutch Government that no cruel animal tests for cosmetics would be needed anymore. Whatever the case or your belief, also because of our fierce fights against animal tests, Holland was the first country in the world to ban animal tests on cosmetics.
Now the Beauty Brains mentioned that we have to proof to them our claims? Why? Who are they in the first place? A few chemists, right? I hired and worked for 40 years with cosmetic chemists and although I enjoy and highly value their skills, some can act like God! Some think they know all because they were trained as chemist. Well, I call myself lucky not to be a trained chemist and proud on my unshakeble belief in natural ingredients and a natural lifestyle I share with many others for my entire life.
I have seen changes in the cosmetic industry and some are good and some are weird. But we proof every day our case of great products and serve satisfied customers in over 15 countries. Our products are approved in Japan, Korea, Australia and soon in EU… and of course all are FDA compliant (and more than that). Actually we are looking at suing the people of Skin Deep Data Base; talking about untruthfulness, I don’t think Beauty Brains have even the guts talking about these powerful people but easier to keep hitting us with few cheap shots, and some good ones too ?
Yes, some website information over the years has been tuned down as we got older, wiser and where our own R&D people taught me certain things as well. I hope the Beauty Brains can do the same (learn and see things with a wider scope) yet I wish them lots of luck with their nice website and hope they continue providing good information. But in our case… “Hmmm … hey guys, can you please put just some little effort in doing homework?
Thanks and wish you all the best
Thanks for the comments Paul, but seriously. Taking a brief look at your website with chemicals that release oxygen and have antioxidant properties in SAME product is an absurd claim even if I wasn’t a chemist. You should have your chemists talk to the marketing department about that. Though it could be a clever way of saying the product does nothing, as in theory the antioxidants would attack the oxygen like it’s supposed to which would defeat the purpose of having a product. I’m on the Brain and Beauty side on this one. You don’t need to do too much homework to see the faulty science. About two clicks into your website and I was convinced your products are a bunch of hype.
S
I just love it when the producer of skin care products that aren’t reliant on a cocktail of chemicals, rattles the cages of the manufacturers of cheap, nasty and some times toxic chemical concoctions that are marketed to consumers as the new ‘fountains of youth’ I too, have been exposed to arrogant chemists, who with a few letters after their name, think they have all the answers & natural ingredients have no place in cosmetics because it edges them out of an ‘industry’ Go for it, Paul!
well, thanks Sima
Also thanks of your time for a brief look at our website.
You know… we will adjust this one somewhat too in the very near future. But saying that this product does nothing (in case this is what you meant by writing) is a little bit…. hmmm.. how to call it?
But yes, you are a chemist right?
And many know all, right?
I can tell you that many, many people use this product. They seem to be quite happy with its effectivenness and is reason why we produce it for almost 10 years now.
Wish you peace and happiness and thanks for your comment.
Hi nochemicalcosmetics.com.
well as we see, professional chemists, like all people in life, come in all sorts and colors. I also wish to say that I agree with a few comments made. But I also believe and 100% stand for, in what we do as a company…. And… profit alone is not our thriving factor. Just wish to make this clear to a few here as well. We could have sold out several times already to one of these biggies but we enjoy being independent and what we do in the rainforests even when we frustrate the Beauty Brains. But that part, the ideology point, may not always be seen / felt working in a lab in the outskirts of a huge polluted city. In a way I can also see how some chemists are confused as well. And some downright dishonest with themselves too. (hey guys… I say few, OK?)
I love that more companies are creating organic and cruelty free products. I personally hope that this continues to be a growing trend. However the argument that Beauty Brains made against cold-processing and the use of gold/silver in cosmetics is compelling. The rebuttal, sorry to say Paul Penders, not so much. Perhaps one of your chemists could discuss the topic?
Jen, thank you for your comment.
But what is it exactly you find so compelling about the comments here? And no serious research but taking old information from years back? Let’s discuss the following…. the colloidal silver …. we do not use it anymore for over 3 years. But not because we do not think it is bad. Only because of more and more ridiculous regulations these days for cosmetics in few countries. Personally, and also armies of people in many countries strongly believe in the unique benefits of colloidal silver which use is rediscovered from the past. But that is a choice right? Talking about compelling …. ? Please read the research done also in Europe about this topic. But it seems like discusssing religion for some, you can’t win or loose. I don’t understand. My point is what is the big issue here of using collidal silver? So many people are against arnica? The Skin Deep Date base for example is strongly against a host of pure natural ingredients. These people are… well… crazy? They rated one of our natural organic products as being dangerous because it contains a fraction of salicylic acid which to them is a cancer causing ingredient? Do we now need to be in panic about the dumb things that even professional chemists these days want to shout about just in order to be heard? Or to promote their own belief, or marketing their books, or whatever reason? Maybe we have to think first little bit more before we talk. Have we Americans not more and more a rather bad reputation in the world about that issue (but that’s another thing).
Whatever the case Jen, I am very, very proud to have used colloidal silver in our products and if it was allowed by Japan Government we would use it again today! We are also proud to have installed the low temperature manuracturing. It makes a lot of sense!
The answer from the Beauty Brains about it…. well… why not you guys read it again? Because in effect they agreed, isn’t? So what is the problem here? So where is respect? Are we, Paul Penders Co., so stupid to manufacturing natural herbal products for 40 years that are available in 15 countries? OK maybe few things overdone for few of you but we make good products and use ingredients, systems, etc. for ouw own compelling reasons.
Beauty Brains please try to be little bit more kind? And first of all, always do your homework before you shout your stuff and attacking others. Or otherwise please just shut up?
Please, Brains, don’t let this conversation end on “please just shut up”!! That quote is from paul penders’ March 27, 2011, 7:19 pm comment. I have no way of knowing if that commenter is an actual company representative or actually Paul Penders. But if he is, that kind of attitude is not the way to succeed in a debate, let alone attract customers.
So I repeat my plea: Please Brains – don’t let that be the last word(s) in this discussion!
To Paul and everyone else: Thanks for all the comments and, for the most part, the polite conversation.
We apologize if we came across as making fun of Paul but, as our regular readers know, we can be a bit tongue in cheek when we’re commenting on claims that don’t appear to be well grounded in science.
Paul, we love Jen’s idea of having one of your chemists respond to some of our comments. If your scientists have data showing your products work better or differently because of your cold processing techniques or that gold and silver ions in your products have a measurable functional benefit, then we would REALLY love to share that information with the rest of our Beauty Brains community. If some of the information we quoted is out of date, we offer you the chance to educate our readership with updated information from your site. We sincerely mean that.
We also think you deserve credit for explaining how you’re using cleansing ingredients that are less harsh than many of the industry based standards. The difference may not be significant for some people but for others it can be quite impactful.
We would also really love to understand why you believe your mixture of organic herbs is beneficial to hair and skin and why that benefit is worth the added expense. From our scientific training, most of those ingredients have not been shown to add any value but again, we’d love to hear your point of view.
Regardless, we do appreciate the open discussion and the fact that you took time out of your busy schedule to comment on our blog. We wish you the best of continued luck with your business.
First of all I entirely agree with debpt and I truly apologize for my comment. I sincerely regret having put it there and I thank you for pointing out my rudeness; I am sorry for that. I also wish to say thanks to Right Brain for the response. I’d love to give my feedback but take at mind I am no trained chemist, I am a pioneer and dreamer and also a fighter for women and animal rights. Maybe people in America think that all is fine with these issues but when one travels throughout the world as I am able to do, the picture is not all that rosey I am afraid. Anyhow I can only give feedback from a limited perspective in the chemical field but then we have done it for long time and I am a very strong believer in what we do and this is also based on results. Thank you for making this forum available.
It is true that every one wants proof that Whether Products of penders have natural Ingriedients or not.
Hi cosmetic dermatology of India – you just simply advertise your own stuff here, right?? By the way how is it possible to ask me “to proof everyone whether we use natural ingredients”? FYI information though (since you are from India) I visited myself the (very nice!) people of Indocert (your national organic certification board in Kerala) a few months ago and showed them my formulations. Why not go to Kochi and talk to them? How else to proof we use natural ingredients or not? By lying to our customers for over 40 yerars? Come on pal… get real.
I am with the Brains on this one, but I must say it is refreshing to have the owner of a company come out and defend himself in plain language. Most cosmetics companies are faceless corporate monoliths. At least there is a real person behind this one.
thanks again Right Brain…. you asked me to show proof and to discuss with Dr. Gatot and Dalila here to respond to your requests. And I did actually, and we don’t know how to satisfy your needs here in the manner requested. And yes, sorry to be going vague here, but much of the things we depend on and trust is our belief in values and …. our experience.
And sorry to bodder everyone by being lengthy again as well. When I was young I talked with my grandmom as I come from a family of cosmetologists. She went to Germany to these “kurorts” (health centers) and often returned with mud, water, plants and herbs. That did not happen 5 years ago but more than 50 years ago.
My mother did the same thing in Holland where she and my father had a well-known beauty salon already before WWII. At age of 12 I was interested in what they were doing and several of the herbs we are currently using are still based on what they have taught me. They used it on their clients over many years and measured results based on success. Success was measured in simple ways – nice skin is great, no good skin is bad. And results were measured over many, many years.
When we look to formulations of Paul Penders products, one can say we are extremely conservative because we treasure the past as we have seen good results and we don’t believe that today’s hype often created by ingredient suppliers can give better results than what we already know. So the essence of our formulations are barely changes over decades.
I learned a lot by working with my customers and with the convent of nuns in Holland. The most incredible thing at that time I discovered was that nuns have naturally beautiful skin till high age without using any cosmetics. And at the time their veils could be taken off – just some simple scalp massage did the trick in restoring beautiful hair. How to measure that? I don’t know and my chemists don’t know either. But to satisfy the truth about what I am saying go to any convent of nuns and look for yourself.
Basically my discovery then is still somewhat the same today… “simple” cosmetics with natural quality ingredients are good enough for skin, combined with a good sunscreen, some exercise and a healthy dieet (and not to forget… not too much worrying as well). Now, what better then can calendula oil be? Or st.johnswort? And please forget the STUPIDNESS (please forgive me for using the word) of “The Safe Cosmetics Campaign” and their questionable practices at The Skin Deep date base. And some ingredient suppliers playing in on these getting confused and worried about much nonsense also often played out so well by the Ecocert’s sorts.
So coming back on “cold manufacturing” – again we don’t know how to measure what amount of workable stuff in a natural ingredient is left after it is being heated to 70 or sometimes boiled for long time to 90 degrees C or more. You ask the wrong people – because we just don’t know what happens when one heats stuff above a certain temperature. To me it is quite normal to understand that with many ingredients a portion of its active material will be killed, isn’t? That fact is already important enough for us to know. And yes, we have used it as a “marketing point” and what is so bad about it? Especially since more and more ingredient suppliers now advise us the very same isn’t? But we do it for 40 years.
The colloidal silver matter. Even last week when I was visiting Europe I met again with my good friend, a homoeopathic doctor, with whom I have discussed colloidal silver water for almost 20 years. He even gives lectures about it and I am happy to provide his email address to the ones really interested in the matter. And, yes, not all silver water is the same. And yes, how it is effective in cosmetics in measurable ways, sorry, i can’t tell you because I don’t know.
But then, there is plenty of reliable stuff available over the internet about the issue and please do NOT go to the supplier websites but look for reliable university studies. And also in this case, ‘silver water’ has been used ages ago. And yes, it is proven by science that it kills many ‘bad bacteria’s’ almost instantly. When I have a wound I simply used peroxide or calendula or arnica. But now it is colloidal silver water; externally and internally. And how it works so well for cosmetics?
We have done some simple tests with acne and dandruff and we saw improvements. But then, we are no doctors nor dermatologists, but what we know from literature, from my friend homoeopathic doctor’s experience with many patients over the years, and from what improvements I saw myself with acne and dandruff was reason to add to our formulations. Then, because of the craziness with regulatory issues (and most of you probably know what is going on in EU and as what I have heard proposed in Sweden) that we decided to withdraw from using colloidal silver some 3 years ago. You also do not find it anymore on our website since 3 years as well. The first country we encountered with problems here was Japan and later Korea as they did not want it simply because it was not known to them. And as export is our major business we decided to make life little bit easier and to drop the use of silver water ?
How organic herbs are better than inorganic – I don’t know and actually I don’t care much because much of it is a marketing hype (although we DO use certified organic herbs). The other reason we think organic herbs are not all that much better because they are used externally. My friend in Malaysia who was a chemist at Estee Lauder in the U.S. tells me that he doesn’t think organic herbs are better and also, sometimes he prefers “synthetic” ingredients over “natural” ingredients. He has his own line of cosmetics which are great products as far as I am concerned. Over the years I have become less “aggressive” as I start to learn more and at my age I still learn every day, but my belief in what is “normal”, and what is “natural” stand.
I also remember that at one time it was questioned by Right Brain about what ethically produced cosmetics are. And also here I am vague for most of you chemists. Maybe some of you need to study the work of the Rudolf Steiner anthroposophy (however I am not a member of anthroposophy) and look at the first years of Weleda cosmetics. How to proof what they claim? His formulations are still around based on same principles (of course adjusted over time). Please don’t ask me about Steiner or Weleda this but read yourself when interested.
And the only certification I am interested in is halal done by the government of Malaysia and accepted worldwide for not using ‘unclean’ ingredients. It is similar to kosher including the way how ingredients are being stored and being used. For some it is little bit silly maybe but to me it is little bit more than simply GMP actually
Again for the ones interested please do not ask me to proof – read it for yourself.
I am aware that I have probably convinced none of you. I do agree with few remarks and suggestion out certain claims we have made on our website and blogs. Some can be adjusted a bit although where it is our core belief it will remain the same. We also do not believe in altering old copy of blogs – but the problem is that people sometimes quote from blogs or newsletter from 5 years ago. I think it is honest to show the world that we too change and learn and can adjust. And in listening we can learn and hopefully find us somewhere in the middle
I’m no chemist myself, but I’m curious about the Brains quick dismissal of the benefits of cold pressing natural ingredients vs. high heat processing as a gimmick. In the world of nutrition, it is widely proven that if you boil a vegetable, you lose much of the nutrient content in the high heat. This is true especially for water soluble vitamins like Vitamin C and certain antioxidant cancer fighting phytochemicals. All products today (synthetic and natural) tout the benefits of vitamins and antioxidants for the skin. So if by avoiding heat, you preserve more of these delicate nutrients, then why wouldn’t that be a benefit to the product?
Funny that designer856 was asking, because I was wondering about the same thing. I live in Europe, and in the food shops, cold pressed olive oil is significantly more expensive than other. (And probably in the US too, of course.) So if I go for vegetable oils in my cosmetics – and I find that even some of my drugstore cheapie facial moisturisers that aren’t declared as “natural” contain shea butter and olive oil in the small printed – then why wouldn’t cold pressed be better?
First of all, I really enjoy reading the Beauty Brains so keep it up!
I think people are missing the point about cold processed formulation being beneficial. This is more of a cost-savings for manufacturers because they don’t need to add heat when manufacturing which help reduce costs to the overall production process. Also, when formulating, for heat-sensitive ingredients and extracts, those are added at the end of the formulation during the cool down phase.
Cold pressing has to be accomplished in very small batches and is quite labor intensive, making it a more expensive processing technique. Its also more difficult to mix ingredients into a final formulation without any heat. If it was a cost saver, you would see every manufacturer doing it.
thank you designer856…. but what a negative approach…. Why? Whatever the case, when compared to the valued opinion of artist910, the issue here is whether Beauty Brains makes us laughable because Paul Penders use principally cold-manufacturing, at a time not many were even thinking about it. And we just made it a marketing point – that’s all. And we start doing it by thinking simple, like so well explained by kamikatze. What else can you guys find to make a small, honest company in business for 4 decades sounds like weird and accuse of bad things? You know, I agree with a few good points Beauty Brains made. And at least they are positively nasty against Paul Penders but honestly speaking I believe we deserve more support for what we do, even when we don’t speak the same technical language for reasons we are proud of as well.
sorry designer856 – the first part of my last response was meant for artist910 …. I was little bit confused and my apologies…..
I have to disagree, Mr. Penders, the Beauty Brains are not “positively nasty”, they let you defend your case freely on their own website.
And I didn’t want to get into these issues, but as you are asking: “What else can you guys find to make a small, honest company in business for 4 decades sounds like weird and accuse of bad things” – you are doing that yourself, in my eyes. I am an open-minded person. Whenever I see someone has a “different” opinion that makes them an outsider, I listen. I am curious, so over the past years, I have informed myself about homeopathy, about anthroposophy and Rudolf Steiner, and I know what “halal” means (and as I love animals, it makes me cringe). All these belief-systems are contradictory, sometimes they are outdated theories someone has conjured up at their desk centuries ago (homeopathy), sometimes even cruel (the racist origins of anthroposophy, and their link to theosophy, or “halal” butchering).
Besides, it does not impress me in a good way when catch-words are thrown at me in a discussion, as if I was supposed to pick the parts about it that they like, and ignore the rest. Throwing catchwords is, to me, a lazy form of arguing. And it makes your philosphy look like a hot mess. As if you were by all means trying to be “hip” in an esoteric way.
Sorry for these harsh words. But you said it was the Beauty Brains who tried to make you look bad, and: no! It’s your own way of arguing!
I am not so sure how to answer this one, but believe you made a few good statements, thank you. But on some issues we maybe differ for example on “outdated”. I believe too, at this time and age we sometimes too fast conclude that things are outdated but who am I to say this? I mentiontioned I am not in the anthroposophy but what Rudolph Steiner did in the beginning with the way how COSMETICS and their herbal extracts are prepared is what I like. As to halal… well, let’s discuss the cosmetic side of things only because that is what we have been discussing from the beginning. And the halal certification as done by Malaysia is a great and humane system and has nothing to do with slaughtering, besides I am an animal right activist of the first order myself. Therefore in case I could not made my points clear I am sorry for that. However, the issues here are less deeply philosophical where we put on our brochures that our products are cold / low temperature manufactured and used it as a marketing point. I think our point is/was valuable as it is more and more being used in the industry as I understand now… GOOD!! I also wanted to clear up that we did do product tests on a convent of nuns (and why) and that we did have “shampoo parties” (anbd we learned a lot of the experiences). I am happy with the response of the Beauty Brains concerning the ingredients we use for the shampoo for example, and then, I guess because of different ways and sizes of companies, and also backgrounds maybe, there always will be differences and think that is good. At the end we all seek the best and hopefully can learn. I am truly thankful for this conversation and to all who have responded. Thank you!
Interesting discussion.But what a smoke screen from Paul Penders.
The blog started with serious comments and questions about some Paul Penders cosmetic preparations and became a story of Paul Penders, his life and his cosmetics.Cold processing became confused with cold pressing, a very different thing.Qualified chemists were attacked for often being “superior”, even BB scientists, by Mr Penders who claims no formal education in the field of cosmetics.We are told that he is to sue Skin Deep originators for “untruthfulness” ( good luck with that, it will be interesting to see how he proves his claim).He mentions that Skin Deep is against a “host of pure natural ingredients”.I have read a large part of the Skin Deep database and Paul Penders cosmetics entry and see a lot of advice with a few ( not a “host”) cautionary warnings.
Interesting discussion? No. Free publicity for Paul Panders and his products?Yes.
I looked at Paul Penders website and their cosmetic products. Sima made a good point about one called Intense Clarifying Therapy which claims to produce “oxygen” to assist the therapy.Helpfully the website entry has a dropdown list of ingredients used to make the cosmetic.
I ask BB scientists, Mr Penders, his R and D chemists or anyone else this question? Where does the oxygen come from? This cosmetic’s chemistry
produces carbon dioxide.
The only oxygen I see is the “oxygen of publicity” for Paul Penders.
Jeanniemac, several things were already mentioned few times by others, I am not sure wat is new. About the “free publicity for Paul Penders”? Who is to gain “from all that free publicity”? Re the Skin Deep issue, my point is that they are indeed against a HOST of natural ingredients for their own reasons maybe. You may also need to look again to their website to inform yourself better. I have made apologies to a few; many writing without their real names and me not knowing who they are. I did not start this discussion in the first place and hope some find some good about Paul Penders and what we do. Wish you all the best and thank you for your valuable comment.
An interesting discussion. In my opinion Mr. Paul Penders distinguishes himself from all of the other cosmetics manufacturers in actually engaging in these sorts of conversations personally, and that must be a big plus for his brand name, even if you don’t agree with his opinions.
As a scientist myself and producer of some cosmetics products, I am happy to engage in discussions of cosmetics products and formulations. However the problem I have with this discussion is that BB have made conclusions/comments on the efficacy of natural ingredients and Paul Penders products without first reviewing any scientific evidence and presenting it here in this forum. I think a more honest approach would have been to approach Paul Penders initially with your concerns and request scientific evidence to support these. Your review then could be presented in this forum.
From my perspective your initial comments come across as a cheap shot at Paul Penders products, and could have been easily directed to a host of other products as well. Why single out Paul Penders? Wouldn’t a more useful discussion have been “Are cosmetics products better because they are cold processed” without singling out a brand name?
At the end of the day consumers need to be better informed about the decisions they make in purchasing cosmetics. Do your opening comments help the situation? I think not.
what amazes me in this discussion is little interest about the way we have been going about making high quality cosmetics with natural ingredients and surely satisfy customers worldwide. No info given away by professionals but strongly defending their own point of view. Ironically enough, Left Brain who started all this came up with some positive comments about our shampoo and even the cold-processing matter that bothered many so much in the first place, seems to be agreed to. Yesterday someone still talking about the small thing of ICT … a very old issue removed from our website. And now it is said we make free PR for our products? How absurd.
No comments on the way how we have been testing our products on a convent of nuns. No comments on how we have tested our products on our own customers for a long time – for us so very serious matters that were initially made laughable. We were fighting a huge war against animal tests for what we needed to leave my country while few companies of some who you work for were happily doing the same tests at that time.
So little credit we are getting from this group
Yes, we have been doing things differently. We also did survive in this brutal competitive world as a small company. I also think few things have been gotten out of proportion emotionally and factually where slaughtering of animals and a bad thing from Germany’s past were mentioned.
We always invite journalists, cosmetic chemists, competitors or whatever to visit our beautiful island; share and discuss what we know; often a wonderful experience ending up in lasting friendships. We now put this Beauty Brains discussion in our latest newsletter of April (no, no, no… not another cheap oxygen PR experience because BB gets publicity as well and may sell one of their great books). It will be interesting to see what (or whether?) comments will come with other interesting points as well.
This article and the comments are weird. I will summarise my thought:
– cold pressing is a good thing and is not the money saving option
– having a product that contains cold-pressed ingredients should be advertised, it’s something to be proud of, something I and many others look for and don’t mind paying a LITTLE extra for
– it’s really great that Paul came on here to defend his company
– it’s really great that they test on live humans
– I find it very disturbing that your [Paul's] chemists don’t know how to prove that their herbs do what they claim or prove that cold pressed ingredients maintain more of their nutrients than heated ingredients. Please Paul, hire new chemists. This should be basic science for them.
– I too find that chemical database sites are a bit iffy with natural ingredients. I don’t think they have an agenda against them and the idea of suing is, erm, interesting (yeah, good luck with that!) especially since you yourself [Paul] seem to be basing your faith in your ingredients on personal experiences, hearsay and longevity, none of which is scientific.
– in my experience, companies prefer to use chemicals because it means their consumers can’t just go out and make their own. E.G. My bought detangler is all natural and I’ve discovered that it’s the Marshmallow Root that helps loosen knots, when this one runs out, I’m going to try and make my own. I know my anti-dandruff products work well if they’ve got tea-tree oil in them, now I just use diluted tea tree oil on my scalp, easy! Same with products with Burdock root as a conditioner or Coconut oil to nourish hair and maintain moisture. So using chemicals means products can’t be made at home and the custom is kept. However, using chemicals means you HAVE to research them to ensure that they’re safe which is why often these database sites have better things to say about lab manufactured TESTED ingredients rather than untested natural kitchen made ingredients/products (‘possible irritant at high doses blah blah’).
– I’m guessing natural products usually cost more because of the labour (often they are handmade) and because they are made in small batches and often have shorter shelf lives, however, I think it’s fair to say some of these companies take the piss with their prices. What gives??
Sorry for the essay! Perhaps I should re-think my use of the word ‘summarise’!
Also, I forgot to say that I see no reason why you couldn’t just speak generally about cold pressing/processing instead of singling out (yes, I know the comment was about Paul Penders products, but still…), nor why you then went on to rant/mock about other claims on his site. I normally love the sarcasm and banter, but it seemed a bit much and personal this time.
And I’m very surprised that you doubt the benefit of using certain herbs on hair for health. I admit I didn’t click the website link so don’t know which herbs were listed, but without a doubt there are many herbs and natural ingredients that are good for hair, skin and health. Would we all be bald and scabby if it wasn’t for chemicals? No!
One has to wonder about sites such as Beauty Brains….they describe themselves as “cosmetic scientists” (whatever that means) but remain anonymous and do not disclose their qualifications. I also note that they
are flogging their books and have advertisements for various cosmetics (Chanel for example) and things like Skin Brighteners. So one could really question their ethics and impartiality.
thank you Jo somebody – but could you please tell us scientific ways how to measure / prove “the claims we make” in cosmetics with herbs; maybe a next person will ask the difference here in naturally grown herbs and organically grown? And why? Who wait for these? People who use herbs understand. Same with the effects of cold-processing / mixing? Isn’t just common sense maybe? What do we need to proof here? Hw about your marrshmallow root conditioner that works so well…. are you going to proof your claim in scientific ways? I donlt think so because who is waiting for that? Who do we need to convince? We are not in religion isn’t? People / customers are smart enough as you know. And that thing with the Skin Deep Data Base is about their incredible unjustified and dumb rating of products containing certain ingredients what our products for example, Weleda and few others make them sound whether you get cancer and whatever terrible illnesses. They have no right to rate any brand like that based on what is not scientific information. It is ridiculous as a matter of fact and few of you are even afraid of them….
Michele Xhing–the ads are put there automatically by google, do not have anything to do with the Beauty Brains. I imagine a website free of ads would be prohibitively expensive to run.
@ Jo Somebody, you are mistaken about why large manufacturers don’t use raw ingredients on a big scale. I’m not a chemist, I’m an art student and speak from own experience. If you don’t use raw materials up quickly OR add preservatives, they will go rancid and even grow little life forms in them, like fungus and bacteria. I’ve seen my coconut oil mix for my hair producing fluffy little green dots…
Many proteins that work nicely in conditioners are made from natural ingredients anyway, like silk, so there is no big contradiction there.
And, yes, natural ingredients can be very irritating. For example, I am allergic to camomille just as well as to some chemicals. And I heard coconut oil can trigger allergies, while olive oil never does.
@ general – I am tired of Mr. Penders’ lengthy and nebulous answers. I was asking him to clarify on his esoteric view points but he didn’t.
It seems to be his overall strategy to speak nebulous, mysterious and confusing. Someone who’s done their homework on natural cosmetics and on alternative world views will find his essays simply bewildering.
kamikatze…. I believe we were discussing the beautiful subject of natural cosmetics…. whether you like certain things I have said or not. Heavens
I’d need to explain my viewpoints on esoteric issues…..?? And where did I say I have views on alternative world views? My God, again, can’t we discuss natural cosmetics? Thank you for your kind understanding.
@Michelle Xhing: “One has to wonder about sites such as Beauty Brains….they describe themselves as “cosmetic scientists” (whatever that means).”
To clarify: “cosmetic scientists” mean that we have degrees in the sciences (chemistry and/or biology) and that our combined experience includes DECADES of experience developing and testing cosmetic products.
And yes, we’re anonymous. We’ve already explained why that’s the case and we’re sorry if that bothers you.
To me personally it doesn’t matter how many “decades combined experience” there may be as it often means not much when followed through one school of thought. And why you and most of these trained professionals who respond to this forum need to be anonymous I do not understand and to the contrary what you said, I don’t think that part is explained properly at all. It is not as much that it bothers me but when attacking others who open up themselves brings questions to me about integrity of a few of the writers here. You, Beauty Brains, in my opinion, do not steer this forum properly and professionally.
Hey, Come on!! This a lively Blog not a Scientific Tribunal.Why is it that at some stage in most discussions, issues of integrity, vested interest, identity, qualification to comment, “evidence” or “scientific proof” raise their ugly heads?
Blogs like this give the opportunity to air opinions without fear of legal retribution.Most of the contributions are mature and responsible even if some were evasive or simply dismissive.That’s “freedom of speech” or “freedom of expression” and if the opinions or questions give offense there is no obligation to participate.
This freedom has an enemy.Censorship.This comes in many guises.It can be through ridicule,bullying,disparaging comment about honesty but the most insidious guise is the threat of being sued for opinion that is perceived to be commercially damaging.
BB’s. This an excellent blog about cosmetic issues but we understand your need to keep your identity to yourselves.
Jeannie Macleod
“To me personally it doesn’t matter how many ‘decades combined experience’ there may be as it often means not much when followed through one school of thought.” This didn’t make any sense to me. Not sure I care to know what you mean, though–it’s obvious you have your mind made up that the brains are up to no good and you are confident that your views are right. I tend to have respect for the knowledge base of people who have decades of experience that I lack, but maybe that’s just me.
Mr Penders it wasn’t me who brought in the esoteric arguments, it was you. I wasn’t even going to comment, but when I saw you ask in one of your later posts above “What else can you guys find to make a small, honest company [...] sounds like weird and accuse of bad things”, I wanted to point out that by throwing in such esoteric catch phrases you were making your company sound weird yourself. I am all for natural products (even though I need to avoid many, for allergies), and even more for cruelty free products, it’s just that this has absolutely nothing to do with homeopathy or any kind of esoteric belief.
I disagree about your definition of halal, but from your website I see that you are selling in muslim countries in Asia and in the middle East, even in Iran, so I guess you have to adapt to their opinions.
May I quite disagree with what you mention please? The adaption of halal standards according to Malaysian Government standards that are worldwide accepted as best, as such has not much to do with “adapting their opinions”. Why do you make that assumption? When a product is called “Kosher” must it then be “adapted to the opinions of that country”? As a matter of fact, and FYI, we are going to apply for a kosher certification as well, besides our products being 100% vegan. Besides you are the first one calling my company “weird”
Thank you so much for your kindness and wish you peace and happiness.
Thank you! I don’t want to be pesky but I was only quoting you:
paul penders March 29, 2011 at 7:26 pm
“What else can you guys find to make a small, honest company in business for 4 decades sounds like weird and accuse of bad things?”
We seem to have a major misunderstanding here. I was simply trying to explain how, by some things you wrote, you, and not the Beauty Brains, did that, in my opinion.
I don’t doubt that you know the regulations in depth and that there are numerous good details that I don’t know, but at the first glance, when I read Malaysia’s definition of halal on their official website, it didn’t seem about quality or hygiene or the well being of animals but just all the superstition that you would expect from religious regulations, be they kosher, halal, or spritzed with a little holy water. Now vegan products on the other hand I think is great and setting a good example for everyone.
Anyway, we don’t have to agree, and thank you for your patience! I’m sure you make good products, and I wish you all the best for that!
I feel thankful for your comment. If we were to meet in person, I am confident, we could discuss things in more detail and I am sure find ways of better mutual understanding. Seemingly nothing in life is perfect. And certainly not my ego I have showed few times during this discussion what was not justified. Thank you for pointing this out.