A few questions on Shampoos, Conditioners, and Living Proof

A few questions if the folks at the Beauty Brains don't mind.  The main ingredients in shampoos are detergents, if these are made to clean the hair and remove dirt and oil and such are all of the other conditioning agents pretty much pointless?  Are they just there in hopes of some of them sticking around after rinsing?

Also, are non-ionic conditioning agents in conditioner also useless?  I would think even hydrophobic ingredients are going to be rinsed off to some degree.  In my mind the "-omuim chlorides" and polyquats are the only real "active" ingredients.  What's really going on?

Unrelated there is a lot of hoobalo about Living Proof products and these two patented polymers OFPMA and PBAE developed by MIT scientists and such.  Has anybody at the Beauty Brains looked into these products and can offer an opinion?  I do recall on a fairly recent podcast episode Randy talking about how there was some sort of new split end mender in one of the Living Proof products (I think it was post Randy's living room attended webscast seminar)  Thanks in advance guys!

Comments

  • If properly formulated conditioning agents can be VERY effective from a shampoo system. But the ingredients have to be either chemically modified to stick to hair through a charge interaction or they have to be suspended in such a way that they deposit on the hair during rinsing (aka dilution deposition.) Silicones and a few other hydrophobic agents use the latter technique.

    From what we've seen the Living Proof brand does have some differentiated technology. Whether or not the difference in performance is enough to justify the higher price is up to the individual. (But at least the brand is not built solely on BS like so many others.) 
  • IIRC, these dilution deposition techniques is what made Pantene pretty famous, right?  Is there a way to tell if this is what is going on just by looking at the ingredients?

    Also, I noticed the shampoos and conditioners from Living Proof don't have glycerin in them.  It seems like everything under the sun does.  Is there any pros/cons to this?  Does the panthenol pretty much take are of some of the roles of glycerin?

    Thank you!
  • Correct about Pantent. It's difficult, if not impossible, to assess how well a product will dilution deposit just from reviewing the ingredients. 

    Glycerin in rinse off products doesn't do much of anything. We've seen some deposition of panthenol when used at high levels. 
  • So I contacted Living Proof about their OFPMA polymer and they told me it is meant to deposit onto the hair when rinsing.  This leads me to believe that it is a dilution deposition type technique for getting it to stay on the hair over some sort of charge.
  • edited July 2016
    Makes sense although I guess that answer is vague enough that it could work either way. It also depends on who was giving you the answer. A lot of times the scientists in the company aren't the ones directly corresponding with the public. 
  • You are probably correct, I have had the public relations folks ask me "what is pH, and why is it important to know?" When inquiring about a certain product.
  • A couple of other curiosities... How much does towel drying remove both ionic and non-ionic conditioning agents from your hair after showering?  Is there a best way to dry your hair?

    Also, if you shower at night are some of the non-ionic conditioners ending up on your pillow and if you are wetting your hair before styling in the morning are they also going down the drain? Basically, are those dilution deposition conditioning agents only remaining on your hair after one rinse?
  • Interesting questions! I haven't seen any hard evidence of this but my understanding is that most of the conditioning materials deposited on hair will remain until you wash it again because a surfactant is required to help "loosen" them. 
  • Since we're on the topic of the Living Proof products, are there any potentially drying ingredients in the shampoo and conditioners?

    I purchased the travel size for dry hair while on the Sephora site. I noticed in the many reviews that there seemed to be a pretty divisive split between those that loved it, and those who vehemently swore it ruined their hair.

    Hoping I'd be in the first group, I tried it. After just one use, my hair fit in the proverbial straw analogy. It took quite a bit of time and conditioning for it to be close to what it normally was.

    I realize that everyone's hair is different, and I've not included the ingredients so this question may--as I've presented it--be unanswerable, but I'm wondering if anyone else experienced it. And why it might work beautifully for some and so disasterously for others.

    Thank you.
  • Like you said...everyone's hair is different. If you post the ingredients of the products you're interested in, I'd be happy to review them for anything that could cause excessive drying. 
  • Hi Randy, and thank you for responding,

    Here are the ingredients for the Living Proof products I used. I've fairly thick, long, color-treated hair that can be dry if not properly conditioned.

    Thanks for your help. And, by the way, I've left an iTunes review. You guys are phenomenal. Any chance of doing another audiobook? I've the one you have now and listen to it wayyyy too much.


    Restore shampoo:
    Water/Eau/Aqua, Sodium Lauroyl Methyl Isethionate, Cocamidopropyl Betaine, Sodium Methyl Cocoyl Taurate, Glycol Distearate, Lactamide MEA, Polyquaternium-47, Behenyl Alcohol, Octafluoropentyl Methacrylate (OFPMA), Creatine, Polyquaternium-22, PEG-7 Glyceryl Cocoate, Laureth-4, Laureth-23, PEG-150 Pentaerythrityl Tetrastearate, PEG-6 Caprylic/Capric Glycerides, PEG-200 Hydrogenated Glyceryl Palmate, Methylchloroisothiazolinone, Tetrasodium EDTA, Methylisothiazolinone, Fragrance/Parfum, Limonene, Hexyl Cinnamal, Linalool, Citronellol, Magnesium Nitrate, Magnesium Chloride

    Restore Conditioner
    Water/Aqua/Eau, Cetearyl Alcohol, Octafluoropentyl Methacrylate (OFPMA), Behentrimonium Chloride, Hydrolyzed Wheat Protein, Ceteareth-25, Quaternium-87, Hydrogenated Castor Oil/Sebacic Acid Copolymer, Guar Hydroxypropyltrimonium Chloride, Citric Acid, Methylisothiazolinone, Methylchloroisothiazolinone, Fragrance/Parfum, Limonene, Hexyl Cinnamal, Linalool, Citronellol, Butylphenyl Methylpropional, Magnesium Nitrate, Magnesium Chloride

    Restore Mask Treatment
    Water/Eau/Aqua, Cetearyl alcohol, Astrocaryum Tucuma Seed Butter, Behentrimonium Chloride, Octafluoropentyl Methacrylate (OFPMA), PPG-3 Benzyl Ether Myristate, PEG-8 Beeswax, Guar Hydroxypropyltrimonium Chloride, Quaternium-87, Polyester-11, Hydroxyethylcellulose, Euphorbia Cerifera (Candelilla) Wax, Ceteareth-33, Glycolic Acid, Methylchloroisothiazolinone, Methylisothiazolinone, Fragrance/Parfum, Limonene, Hexyl Cinnamal, Linalool, Citronellol, Butylphenyl Methylpropional, Magnesium Nitrate, Magnesium Chloride

    Perfect Hair Day® Night Cap Overnight Perfector
    Water, Octafluoropentyl Methacrylate (OFPMA), Ethylhexyl Stearate, Propylene Glycol Dibenzoate, PPG-3 Benzyl Ether Myristate, Isohexadecane, Quaternium-91, Isoamyl Laurate, Polyquaternium-4, Hydroxypropyl Guar, Hydrogenated Castor Oil/Sebacic Acid Copolymer, Isododecane, C13-15 Alkane, C10-40 Isoalkylamidopropylethyldimonium Ethosulfate, Linoleamidopropyl Ethyldimonium Ethosulfate, Cetearamidoethyl Diethonium Hydrolyzed Rice Protein,E58, Fragrance, Oryza Sativa (Rice) Seed Protein, Oryza Sativa (Rice) Extract, Phytic Acid, Hydroxyethylcellulose, Glycerin,. Sodium PCA,PCA Ethyl Cocoyl Arginate, Arginine, Glycine, Alanine, Serine, Valine, Isoleucine, Proline, Threonine, Histidine, Phenylalanine, Dipropylene Glycol, Phenoxyethanol, Ethylhexylglycerin, Caprylyl Glycol, Glycolic Acid, Aspartic Acid, Sodium Lactate, Citronellol, Butylphenyl Methylpropional, Limonene, Citral, Geraniol.
  • I think I experience what people say is "dryness", but I kind of like it.  I think people feel it as "dry" when it is in fact just this OFPMA polymer that forms around your hair.  It certainly doesn't have the feel of hair products that have polyquats, and dimethicone, which I would say is very soft.  The issue I always had with many of those products is my hair falling flat.  This Living Proof products, while leaving an unfamiliar physical feel to my hair seem to make it much more manageable and at the same time lighter.  YMMV.
  • I agree. My guess is that the cause is the OFPMA because the feel is so different. I do wonder if this ingredient could cause  dryness on the scalp.  
  • edited August 2016
    Interesting question.  I haven't really experienced this, but at the same time they claim non-water soluble and non-oil soluble.  They also say it acts as a membrane which controls moisture flow in and out of the hair.  This could be marketing mumbo-jumbo, but if it does do this I would almost suspect it might be good for skin allowing a membrane to control moisture loss, while not being totally occlusive.
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