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Retinol Products
  • Abdana
    I notice that Olay, RoC, Paula's Choice, and Neutrogena among many others have lots of products that contain retinol or a similar retinal palmitate type ingredient. Do these ingredients actually thicken the dermis and help diminish lines/wrinkles? How much of the ingredient is effective, and how would you know how much these products contain? Do they always dry out skin?
  • lindygirl1960
    Just a forum member but here is my two cents worth from my own experience and from what I have found doing research online on these topics.

    I have only used the Neutrogena and Alpha Hydrox retinols. If I understand what I have read on the subject correctly dermatologists say the lesser concentrations of retinols in these types of products do work. You do have to use them consistently. In my own experience they do not cause dryness. Most of the products do not list the percentages on either the products label or on the company website. The Alpha Hydrox Retinol ResQ does have a paper inside the box that indicates the percentage is 15% (going from memory here so that number may not be completely accurate. I had read that someone's best guess on the percentage in the Neutrogena Healthy Skin Anti-Wrinkle Cream night formula is 25%. Paula Begoun gives good reviews to both these products.

    One final note. These should be used at night. Do not use AHA's with them. If you want to use AHA's too then use an AHA under your sunblock for daytime. AHAs are also helpful in thickening the dermis and helping with skin tone.
  • sarahf
    I use a neutrogena retinol product (tone-correcting moisture).  I believe it has helped w/ my overall skin texture and very, very gradually may be helping my melasma (age spots).  I have rosacea, and my skin did flare up pretty badly when I first used it.  So go gradually if you've never tried it.  I dilute half-strength with my regular moisturizer, and I still only use it every other day because of the rosacea/sensitive skin.  Certainly when you start using it, you'd want to dilute it and/or use every other day or even every few days until your skin adjusts (which it will).  I think the most common side effects are redness, mild discomfort (warmth, burning), and peeling.  They typically go away completely once the skin adjusts.
  • Abdana
    Thanks lindygirl1960 and sarahf - both helpful. Just bought a Neutrogena - and will go slowly as you said.
  • PukutePukute
    You can achieve with these just a very modest improvement if any, some of these creams aren't effective at all. If you want something proven, try lower concentrations prescription tretinoin. I am on tretinoin 0.1 %- yes, it had some side effects (dry, flaky skin, redness) but you can't compare results with any Olay, Roc... etc.

    More about it: http://www.smartskincare.com/treatments/topical/retinol.html
  • Ally E.Ally E.
    I used paula's 1% retinol serum as an antioxidant for my skin, i'm 23 so no wrinkle fighting action needed, just some refreshing as I live in one of the most polluted cities in the world. i noticed my skin became less susceptible to environmental changes, my rosacea flairs up less often, i get fewer spots, but i'm still using the serum and it has been 5 months, i'm pretty sure all the antioxidants and retinol have died down. so it's a moisturiser now :) btw Paula bashes other companies for making bad packaging for their antioxidant and retinol products, but hers is no better. the air gets in the tube every time after use, as the bottle recovers to it's original size, so when that happens is sucks the air in, they should have gone with metal tube like Neutrogena have, so that if you squeeze on it - it stays that shape.
  • PukutePukute
    Hi, Ally E.!

    You got a great point. About Paula Begoun, only one thing I don't understand is, why people blindly believe everything she says. Here is a lot of truth in her page, but we should not forget she is salesperson and her aim is to prove why you should buy her products instead of others (logically, you can't trust anyone who tries to convince you of buying their products). That her packaging is not anyhow better, I definitely agree with you. I have used this serum and noticed the same thing you described. Metal tubes are more reasonable, that's why most of tretinoin products come from these tubes, in order to ensure a better protection from oxidation, that is a damaging factor for antioxidants and retinols and makes them ineffective. By the way, I am not sure how antioxidants are beneficial for skin, I haven't seen any convincing research why should we use these topical antioxidants. I wonder, are they important ingredients in skin care?
  • Ally E.Ally E.
    that's a valid point Pukute, btw is your nickname lithuanian? i need to research more if the antioxidants are really that important when applied topically, i know for sure oral antioxidants work miracles if you find a good supplement.
  • PukutePukute
    Thanks for your reply Ally E.

    Yes, it is Lithuanian one :-) I had a cat with this name, in English it could mean something like ''Fluffy'' :-)

    By he way, Ally E. your icon is so beautiful, eye-catching :-)

    I am not sure about supplements, which exactly could be useful... So I will keep researching the antioxidants for topical use...

    May we need to start a discussion about it...
  • Ally E.Ally E.
    yeah i thoight so, i'm from Lithuania myself :) oh thanks. well i have been following one of the supplements and now there's substantial evidence it work wonders. it's called protandum. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TI3x5E9BRYk watch for yourself, i'm still sceptical
  • PukutePukute
    You are funny :-) Where are you originally from?

    Thanks, I am researching this supplement. I actually have never heard about this one. It seems protandum isn't very popular- at least here, in Europe.

    First of all, why would you need any supplement?

    I have watched this video on youtube and my first thought was, that it could not be a reliable source to get knowledge about any product- anybody can put a video to youtube. Not to mention this guy (even these doctors who talk about this miraculous supplement) can be hired by company (and it is so, from the beginning of video it is obviously shown that it is made by very same ''undergroundwellness''). This video could be called a testimonial (beginning of video) and just a ''pure'' advertisement.

    Check out this beauty brains posts:
    http://thebeautybrains.com/2009/02/11/beauty-skepticism-part-3-anecdotal-evidence/
    http://thebeautybrains.com/2009/02/19/beauty-skepticism-be-suspicious-of-authorities/

    Also do not trust media or TV- the information you get from these is usually more entertainment or advertisement than scientific based evidence.

    Now if you go to Protandim website you find many incredible claims (''"fountain of youth''). It seems too good to be truth,so perhaps it is. Moreover it is not a cheap thing- 50 $ for a bottle- wow!

    ''What is Protandim? It’s a combination of Milk thistle, Bacopa extract, Ashwagandha, Green tea extract, and Turmeric extract. I looked these up in the Natural Medicines Comprehensive Database. None of them is known to have any significant clinical benefit from antioxidant effects. ''
    http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=852

    It seems this supplement has a limited scientific evidence to back up their ''miraculous claims''. It maybe just another marketing scam. It maybe won't harm you, but it can be too costly for something that we are not sure works or not.

    And here is a critical and trusted page about these supplements (about certain antioxidants. Note: some were found to be harmful!).
    http://www.quackwatch.com/03HealthPromotion/antioxidants.html

    It is also worth noting that the supplement industry is a multi billion-dollar enterprise.

    And if you are thinking you need any special vitamins, stop to think for a minute- it maybe a waste of money:
    Twenty-Five Ways to Spot Quacks and Vitamin Pushers: http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/spotquack.html

    A short essay ''No Truth to the Fountain of Youth (no effective proven anti-aging remedy, by Scientific American): http://web.mac.com/sjayo/SJayOlshansky/Background_files/NoTruthtotheFountainofYouth.pdf

    But calorie restriction diet could be promising to extend a lifespan (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/04/100415141123.htm)

    Probably the best way to get needed vitamins and antioxidants is to eat whole foods (esp. vegetables, fruits). No supplement can replace nutritious foods, which are a lot of more than few isolated ingredients in a pill.

    Well, for you to decide.

    Take care.
  • PukutePukute
    Sorry, it was a long post :-)
  • Ally E.Ally E.
    oh, no, no need to be sorry, that's some serious looking into you've done there :) Oh, I'm from Klaipeda.

    anyway, i tend to trust underground wellness as it's the website that pushes me towards whole food movement and other holistic therapies. of course i realise that they advertise as well, i watch them mainly for educational videos, like the one they have were he draws diagrams on how sugar is metabolised in our system, pretty impressive stuff. protandim claims are very exaggerated, i surely won't be buying any of those, but the power of a multivitamin is evident to me. once i take a good one i have much more energy and feel much better. It took me awhile to find whole food vitamins that don't contain any caking agents or any other synthetic stuff.
  • PukutePukute
    Thanks, I tried my best :-) It is a very wide topic.
    I love researching things and I am very very skeptical :-) it's great if my comment was useful for you...

    I personally don't use any vitamins. Somehow not enough evidence that they are necessary. Do vitamins provide energy? Actually energy comes from the calories in food, and vitamins have no caloric value...

    Anyway :-) If it works for you, I don't bother :-) In fact, we are all different, so here is no absolute truth for everyone...

    Are you really from Klaipeda? :-) Well, it is my hometown :-) I thought you were kidding me :-)
  • Ally E.Ally E.
    no kidding :)

    i guess vitamins supply the nutrients that are lacking from my diet. and i agree, calorie restricted diet really works for longer living. i can see the evidence in my family.
  • PukutePukute
    It was a discussion about retinol products and ended up about supplements :-)

    In summary : use retinol or tretinoin cream for skin and practice calorie restriction diet - then, you will look and feel younger :-)

    I personally think, not everyone (included me :-) would like to be on strict diet and feel hungry most of time :-) Easy to say, but hard to do :-)

    Ally E.: Ar tu kalbi lietuviskai? :-) Turetum suprasti si sakini, jei esi lietuvaite klaipediete :-)
  • Ally E.Ally E.
    tai aišku suprantu. kod?l netiki, kad ir aš galiu iš KLP but?

    sorry everyone. it's just exciting to find someone from far away country on here that has a population of 3mil.
  • PukutePukute
    Nepyk del klausimo :-)

    Ko jau ko, tai lietuvaites sutikti cia nesitikejau :-) Labai smagu tave matyti Beautybrains forume.
    Beje labai pasiilgau Lietuvos ir savo gimtojo miesto, tai sitas atsitiktinumas labai pradziugino :-)

    It is really very exiting to find someone from our small country :-)
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