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Yes Tocopherol is not very stable, that’s why tocopheryl acetate was created. I really don’t understand the C15 from Paula’s Choice. They say the “air restrictor” reduces air intake, but if you take the droppler out air will flow in anyway, I mean otherwise the bottle would have to be vacuum in the end, so constantly new air is flowing in the bottle.
It would be interesting to know how long it takes for the ingredients to deteriorate in for example the Paula’s Choice products. If it is for example 15 minutes after producing, with all shipping times the products will be useless, but if it takes about 2-3 months or even longer, its long enough for normal use conditions.I think there are three scenarios:1. She uses extremely low concentrations of the unstable antioxidants, something like 0.0001%, then it wouldn’t make a difference if it was oxidized or not. Because the actives wouldn’t do anything anyway.2. Considering she claims the ingredients are added in sufficient high concentrations to be active, maybe by the combination of actives, stabilizers and the pH etc the ingredients are stable enough to last during the 2 months of usage. Would be a nice thought, but for some ingredients simply not valid.3. The ingredients are oxidated when you use the product, and you are damaging your skin by using the products. For example Ascorbic Acid, Retinol, EGCG, Resveratrol are extremely unstable ingredients, theoretically they can only be used in airless packaging. And even when producing the products special lighting and filling techniques have to be used to keep them stable. Paula’s Choice says a slight yellow color is normal for the C15 serum, but Vitamin C will be oxidized significantly even before any change in color happened.I mean I want airless packaging as well. But we have to admit, we only know the ingredients are unstable, not in what time frame they will be completely degraded/oxidated. I really wanted to buy the Resist Toner, Skin Perfecting 2% BHA Gel and 10% Niacinamide Booster, but I constantly keep thinking well are the concentrations of actives high enough, and will they be stable.It should be ok when you receive it. Check the PAO symbol to see what is advised for shelf life after opening?
Point 2 you made- for some ingredients not valid!!!! Ditto that
Point 3 oxidised products are detrimental on the skin!!!! You are better off not applying it in the 1st places
For 10% Niacinamide, try the Ordinary or this Aussie product I just posted on my blog with 10% Niacinamide? Propaira Skin Defence Serum for aging skin with 10% Niacinamide.
Another place to consider is Skin Actives.I haven’t tried any other above. What About uncover?
Ps: I hear from the grapevine Paula Begoun has sold her shares and is no longer in control, I don’t see the direction of PC going the way it did when she was steering.
For products in wrong packaging, I try to repackage them ASAP once I open them. Store them in the refrigerator.
I think you don’t understand my comment, I totally am on your side and agree with you.
I only give three possible options of what might be happening with the products of Paula’s Choice, personally I think some antioxidants are too unstable to be packaged in tubes or bottles, like retinol. That would mean (if the products contain high enough percentages as PC claims, although scenario 1 is more likely the case) some of Paula’s Choice products fall under scenario 3, they could harm your skin. Only we don’t know with 100% certainty if that’s really the case. I only raise the point that we don’t exactly know how fast the ingredients are totally degraded, is it 1 hour, 1 month, 3 months, I don’t know. Maybe you know? If the active antioxidants, with some miracle formulating techniques, would stay stable for 2 months, the products would fall under scenario 2. However, if antioxidants are unstable they will be somewhat unstable even after stabilizing techniques if not packaged airless and stored refrigerated I think.But even when you receive a product the antioxidants may have been degraded, of course the product didn’t expire, shelf life is okay, but under extreme temperatures (on a ship for example) resveratrol and ascorbic acid won’t stay stable. If a bottle is manufactured in the usa, and has to be shipped to the netherlands, by then some actives will have lost their potency probably. That’s also why Uncover Skincare stores the products refrigerated and delivers within 12 hours (even if you order at 23.30 at night), to keep the actives stable and they even package the products completely airless. Uncover even says they don’t add antioxidants to the body sunscreen, because it isn’t packaged airless, so antioxidants would be useless. So if Paula’s Choice doesn’t take all these measures, and shipping overseas may take several weeks I guess, what should we think of her products.Mmm, not good news about Paula Begoun not in control anymore. That’s probably why the products are suddenly so expensive, I mean a 25% vitamin C serum for 55 dollars (15mL) and the 10% niacinamide booster for 42 dollars (20mL). I mean those prices are just absurd. Even the regular products are constantly raised in price.Okay, I should get airless containers then!
I have near isopropyl alcohol in my bathroom. I suppose I can just clean the containers before I decant the skincare products into it? How do you guys do it…?@escherichia i shall PM u the links to buy… i forgot about that.
– you should wash the bottles with detergent..– use milton tablets (to sanitise baby milk bottles)– air dry and– make sure ALL the alcohol evaporate! otherwise u will end up with SD alcohol in your container.generally i don’t use alcohol… once i decanted something and the airless bottles holes are so narrow that the alcohol did not evaporate quickly… ugh… yucky alcohol inps: how do you cosmetic scientist do it?
Yes, expiry and PAO dates are only guidelines! If it was stuck in a hot boat/delivery truck that will be detrimental for the product!
I want to repurchase products from Skin Actives but I was concerned about it getting stuck in a heated truck (getting very hot here in Australia). They include a lot of anti-oxidants in there skincare. I think I should order it after summer here and when it isn’t hot in Arizona, USA.
No- one does the refrigeration like the uncover skincare you use!! It is truly amazing the dedication they do! How Long does it take for you to receive your Uncover products from the time you place an order?
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Regarding Paula Choice.
I read this:
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The below was posted by others (don’t know how to do quotations here)—
Paula’s Choice is backed by Bertram Capital (has been since 2012) and their CEO is no longer Paula’s Choice (who is now the founder).
So it’s not surprising a lot of their newer actions don’t “make sense” with what the brand was built on. Kinda disappointing, but I guess this happens when you favour growth.
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Bertram Capital was the first step, and now PC was sold again, it is now TA Associates (also a new CEO is coming): http://www.ta.com/portfolio/investments/paulas-choice-llc
The problem is not that the product expires, because the companies do pretty extensive testing (for weeks in extremely hot temperatures, or extreme cold temperatures). That’s about changes in texture, growth of bacteria, rancidity etc. However the antioxidants and actives may have deteriorated long before that happens. If you read the stability issues with Green Tea Extract and Superoxide Dismutase for example, they simply can’t stay sable under those conditions. Paula’s Choice claims they have tested the products, formulated and packaged them in such a way the actives stay stable. But well I’m not so sure about that. If I order the Uncover Skincare products at 23:30 at night, I will have them around 15:00 the next day. The only downside with the Uncover products, they are expensive, and the sunscreen leaves a white cast.I know, in Europe the distribution center of Paula’s Choice is located in The Netherlands. I’ve read they have all kind of expansion plans, and the story of paula begoun is what sells the products is their thinking. A woman who couldn’t find the right products, because all other products contained irritants, and they she start a line of her own. But by now they have eye creams, boosters, a mens line, about 20 different moisturizers, endless options. I mean it doesn’t feel they really want the best for your skin, they only want to sell products. A normal person doesn’t need a choice between that many products. The whole paula begoun thing is only relevant to give the products a story, and for people to trust the brand. But the only products with high amounts of actives are extremely expensive, and with the normal products you don’t know how high the concentrations are that they are using, and also products are constantly raised in price. I mean its difficult, in the Netherlands you don’t have that many mild fragrance free brands, so you will end up at Paula’s Choice pretty quickly. But it feels you’re being ripped off by them. Uncover by the way, has two lines (normal/dry or normal/oily), with 5 products (cleanser, toner, exfoliant, moisturizer, sunscreen), so it’s easier to choose, and you know they use the right percentage of actives. You don’t know that with Paula’s Choice.Although I am experimenting with the Exfoliant and Toner of Paula’s Choice, because I don’t want to spent to much money. And sunscreen, I don’t know yet, I’ve ordered another sunscreen at Derma that should be less greasy than the one I’m using now (the one with SLES from another post). If that doesn’t work I’m going to use the Uncover Skincare SPF15, or the PC Skin Recovery SPF30.@Peter I understand completely where you are coming from regarding potent antioxidants. I am no cosmetic chemist, so i don’t know what they do to “stabilize” the antioxidants. I too am with you that it is likely the antioxidants is not as high in the first place for PC’s products as there is no way it can withstand the kind of logistics they have. Having used their antioxidant serum, it is a far cry from my dermatologist’s products.
tbh, i don’t use Paula’s choice. Apart from their BHA, i do find the world my oyster. I do have other options that give better value
It is a shame in Netherlands you are restricted by the online payment methods (no paypal), (customs tax?) and little mild/fragrance free brands. If I were you, i will get Uncover too. Instead of paying for a more mediocre product (and paying more shipping/taxes). The only thing stopping me from buying Uncover is the delivery time and the costs See how you go with the sunscreens. I’ll let you know how i go down under. lol Perhaps i’ll discover a non-whitening one you could consider.btw, Ethelinde has received the Babo Botanicals Sunscren i mailed already. I hope she does her patch test first!@Peter by the way i want to reference this the Beauty Brain Perry Romanowski shared:
Myths debunked in an interview with Perry Romanowski says
Is there any truth to the belief that jar packaging is extremely unhygienic, and/or detrimental to the shelf life of a product? If jar packaging is as awful as people say it is, why do companies use it?
Jar packing of products can be done perfectly safely and it is not something people should worry about. Of course, this assumes that the formula has a proper preservative system. There are some small companies who avoid preservatives and use jar packaging. This is unhygienic and extremely dangerous in my view. If you are buying an “all-natural” cosmetic, avoid jar packaging unless they use a proper preservative. But for cosmetic products produced by large companies, jar packaging is perfectly safe.
read the entire interview here
If you are talking about shelf life of a product there is no need for airless packaging indeed, preservatives are added to a product for that. But preservatives don’t preserve ascorbic acid for example. So still the fact remains, the product may still be good, but the antioxidants may have oxidized if not packaged properly. Companies don’t test if Green Tea, Ascorbic Acid, Resveratrol etc still have the skin benefits they did have, and are still “active” after long periods. Most of the times they are just added in extremely low concentrations to claim the product contains the ingredient, but they don’t do anything for skin, and if not produced and packaged properly the benefits may have been lost.@Peter I agree with you 100% which is why most Over The Counter (OTC) products don’t contact high levels of Ascorbic Acid! or any antioxidants for that matter
and yes.. the secret is out… my dermatologist shared that with me about a decade agoi recently tested a product by Elizabeth Arden containing only 1 active ingredient Idebenone … and the packaging they used are 100% airless!on the contrary, when antioxidants go bad, i have experienced a reverse effect. It’s negative on the skin!!!! makes my skin darker. (used a brand i will not name whose actives are high but packaging sucks)That’s why I rather buy an inexpensive product without any special antioxidants, than one where the actives simply are oxidized. Read the new post from Randy about Aloe Vera Gel:
“The research summarized by WHO confirms this. They say …”At present no commercial preparation has been proved to be stable. Because many of the active ingredients in the gel appear to deteriorate on storage, the use of fresh gel is recommended.”
So, it seems unlikely that most of the aloe lotion products on the market will provide all the benefits we described.”
That’s exactly the same with resveratrol and green tea, they are simply too unstable, they are already degraded by the time the product leaves the factory. Or at least that’s what I fear. And I’m not gonna pay enormous amount of money on vitamin c, or antioxidant boosters if they are oxidized, because as you say, they not only have no benefit for skin, many can actually harm your skin.
What do you think should I buy this toner instead of one from Paula’s Choice. It doesn’t contain any special antioxidant ingredients, but it also doesn’t contain instable ingredients or irritants. Although the concentration of Pentylene Glycol is probably really high:
Aqua, Pentylene Glycol, Glycerin, Panthenol, Allantoin, Sorbitol, Sodium Gluconate, Citric Acid.
@Peter What toner is that? Uncover?
Damn. I just deleted my texts accidentally
BINGO on the antioxidant stand. 110% in agreement with you.I prefer 0% antioxidants that any antioxidants that has gone bad!And YES even Skinceuticals that has patented their Vitamin C formulae… they managed to get the edge over the competition for a bit and i have seen reports that the Vitamin C goes bad when left in a car (hot temperature). The ferulic acid and vitamin E only extends and makes it less oxidative unstable BUT not immune to oxidation.Aqua, Pentylene Glycol, Glycerin, Panthenol, Allantoin, Sorbitol, Sodium Gluconate, Citric Acid.Firstly I like many of the ingredients here:- Pentylene Glycol is used instead of Propylene Glycol
- Lots of skin conditioning ingredients: Pentylene Glycol, Panthenol Vitamin B5, Sorbitol & Sodium Gluconate
- Skin soothing ingredient : Allantoin
- Citric acid here is just added to adjust pH
- i don’t see a preservative
- Water is maybe 90% of this formula so i would like to know where this is manufactured and which company this is. Ideally, what kind of water was added.
- I would have liked to see some more actives in here. You’re right. Nothing much in here. Nothing bad.. nothing exceptional. Synthetic Pentylene Glycol is a lil high for my liking too.
- You could try pure Sea Kelp Bioferment if you want to use something like this. Get it at your DIY shops, cheaper too!
All in all, this is probably a good conditioning toner to prepare the skin to receive actives. Plus they have added citric acid, so it is likely of a lower pH more similar to the skin’s acid mantle of approx 5.5. Good to balance the skin after cleansing (sometimes higher pH).Personally i am a BIG fan of more astringent toners for my face. Witch Hazel can do all the above and tighten my pores.What skin concerns are you addressing when you are using the toner? It all depends what you want,I find with conditioning toners, Asian skincare does it really well! I have been looking at this brand Manyo Factory, it has “clean” ingredients, organic etc I know buying overseas is an issue for you.@Peter i had a look for you
What do you think of this?Ingredients: fermented filtrate of galactomyces, mineral water, spring water, butylene glycol, nicotinamide, hyaluronidase sodium, witch hazel extract, Centella asiatica extract, sage leaf extract, betaine salicylate, white willow bark extract, black yeast enzyme, moong bean extract, licorice extract, polyglyceryl-10 laurat, polyglyceryl -10 myristate, citric acid, malic acid, poly-glutamic acid, lactic acid, chamomile extract, peppermint leaf extract, allantoin, trehalose, chrysanthemum extract, Lily extract, witch hazel blossoms extract, calendula extract, apple tree blossoms extract, limonia seed acid extract, cherry blossoms extract, pepper tree extract, pasque flower extract, usnea extract, tricolor violet extract, Dipotassium Glycyrrhizate, Lonicera Extract, Oldenlandia diffusa extract, bamboo leaf extract, tangerine flower extract, peppermint oil. - Pentylene Glycol is used instead of Propylene Glycol
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