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The toner I mentioned is from the brand Neutral, produced by Unilever (like Olay from Procter and Gamble). It has a pH of 3.6.
The main preservative system is the low pH, Pentylene Glycol and the chelating agent Sodium Gluconate. Probably also glycerin and sorbitol. It’s called self preservative systems. Also ingredients that reduce the water activity can preserve the product. The water activity is an important factor for preserving. Water binding substances like salts, polyols, protein hydrolysates, amino acids and hydrocolloids are used then. Many companies do use these kind of ingredients, they are not registred as a preservative, but do function as a preservative. People don’t know that, so they think it’s free from parabens/phenoxyethanol/methychloroisothiazoliane, and must be good. Some ingredients by themselve have a very long shelf life, so products without water and high concentrations of petrolatum for example almost don’t need preservatives.Read the article by Papageorgiou: New alternatives to cosmetics preservationThe toner you mentioned contains a whole bunch of irritating ingredients like: sage leaf extract, peppermint leaf extract, chrysanthemum extract, Lily extract, tricolor violet extract, tangerine flower extract, peppermint oil.And witch hazel, I don’t know, there is a lot of conflicting research. Side effects like skin rashes and allergic reaction are very common with witch hazel. Such plant extracts contain so many different compounds. I rather stick to the well researched actives.Stability of Epigallocatechin gallate (green tea)”:I must research this more…there are many more studies, although most conclude, that measures need to be taken to stabilize the ingredients Paula’s Choice uses. I can’t be sure if they are degraded in her products.Yes Low pH products don’t need so much preservatives! Wow 3.6 ! That is Low pH.
Will take a look at the article you shared
thanks for sharing. Will see if I can find it online.Koreans do use a lot of weird ingredients that aren’t as well researched! I personally favour well researched ingredients too!
Is chrysanthemum irritating too? I thought that is similar to chamomile? Not familiar with it!
Do you have sensitive skin?
The only research I’ll be doing for a while is my taxes! Argh! Tax time! Yikes
I don’t know if oxidized ascorbic acid is dangerous, I don’t think so, although the degraded ascorbic acid can be converted back in skin using up your antioxidant reserves in skin. So that means it only lowers your skin reserves. However certain actives that become degraded can form degradation products and prooxidant molecules that may have side effects on skin, but those sentences are added frequently in all kind of studies, without clear explanation. That’s why I asked Randy to explain, how stable actives are and what the side effects are of degraded actives. But if you know, please explain with some studies. And also the suggestion of not using Niacinamide together with Vitamin C (derivatives).Unfortunately, I have used Oxidised Ascorbic Acid on my skin. Thankfully not the face! First, it turns my face more yellow, and it ages the skin. The skin looks dry/dull and the effects is like that of a sun burn. Truly awful. I have noticed the same effects on my skin when i use a product (though not expired) but has gone bad.See this posts by The Beauty Brains : Vitamin C oxidizing on skin and staining orange?“Adverse reactions of topical Vitamin C” in “Vitamin C in Dermatology”: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3673383/
“Minor adverse reactions include a yellowish discoloration of the skin,
hypopigmented hair and staining of clothes, which occur due to oxidative
changes of Vit. C.”@Peter The Ordinary actually advises Niacinamide and L Ascorbic Acid not be used together.I quote from their site: “Contraindications: If topical Vitamin C is used as part of skincare, it should be applied at alternate times with this formula (ideally Vitamin C in the PM and this formula in the AM). Otherwise, Niacinamide can affect integrity of pure-form Vitamin C (L-Ascorbic Acid). “
I found that study you mentioned Papageorgiou: New alternatives to cosmetics preservation
Yes but staining doesn’t necessarily mean that it damages skin. That’s also what randy said in that same post. However oxidized ascorbic acid does deplete your own antioxidants in skin, so you would like to use the potent ascorbic acid that’s not oxidized.
And not combining ascorbic acid with niacinamide, I don’t know, it’s a theory. Read the article by kindofstephen, in reality the conversion of niacinamide occurs at an extremely slow rate. And the formation of niacinamide ascorbate only occurs to a significant amount at a certain low pH, and still the formed chemical protects your skin. The yellow color of niacinamide ascorbate has nothing to do with oxidation and doesn’t damage your skin http://kindofstephen.com/can-you-use-niacinamide-and-vitamin-c-ascorbic/. Of course you need a low pH for ascorbic acid to penetrative.
I use a cream with 5% Ascorbyl tetraisopalmitate, that penetrates skin easier at a higher ph than ascorbic acid, combined with 5% niacinamide at a pH of 5, I don’t believe that’s a bad combination.
@Peter Yes i have read the article by Stephen.
Ironically he works at Deciem (grapevine)oh i think you misunderstand. I didn’t not get any yellow from Niacinaimde. It’s the oxidised Vitamin C that i had issues with.And so far, i have been mixing Niacinamide and Ascorbic Acid with no issues however i have never used Niacinamide as high as 10%.Another issue with the Ordinary Niacinamide is that it contains Zinc. All metals are incompatible with Ascorbic Acid. That includes Zinc, Copper, Iron etc Which is why Ascorbic Acid is usually formulated in demineralised water.I would prefer to use The Ordinary 10% Niacinamide + Zinc and 23% Ascorbic acid separately as instructed by the manufacturer. AM & PM.The Ascorbyl Tetraisopalmitate, Vitamin C derivative you are using is a very good alternative! I have preordered The Ordinary Ascorbyl Tetraisopalmitate serum… will see how that goes. I have never used this Vitamin C derivative in high concentration before Does your product contain both actives: Ascorbyl Tetraisopalmitate & Niacinamide? One is water soluble and another is fat soluble. What is the texture like? Since it is not Ascorbic acid, there is no issue combining themYes I understand, the yellow color you were referring to was not the yellow color of niacinamide ascorbate, but oxidized ascorbic acid. That’s why I described the interaction between niacinamide and ascorbid acid in a seperate paragraph
I don’t think oxidized vitamin c damages skin, although I’ve read some articles that it may use up other antioxidants in skin. So I guess it isn’t very beneficial to say the least.About the Ordinary products, its zinc pca, a zinc salt of PCA, a very different molecule than zinc. Some companies combine Vitamin C with Zinc PCA. So I don’t know, there’s a lot of information on the internet, but I don’t believe the first article or statement of a company. Most people are no scientists and it’s easy to misinterpret studies. From what I’ve read it’s not too much of a problem. Certainly Ascorbic Acid is destabilized by heavy metals, but too what extend (like 100% or only 0.005%), and in what time frame, and what stabilizers are used, and no company adds separate molecules of heavy metals to a product… But I know, I’m not going to use a product with Avobenzone with Titanium Dioxide or Iron Oxide either, so I completely understand that you want to apply the two Ordinary products separately. Although until I find a real study explaining such reactions in real in-vivo situations I remain skeptical.Ascorbyl Tetraisopalmitate is used combined with Niacinamide in the Uncover Moisturizer. Also Ascorbyl Tetraisopalmitate has the same interaction with Niacinamide and instability issues in combination with metals, because it’s converted to Ascorbic Acid in skin quite effectively. Although the pH in the deeper layers of your skin won’t be as low as the outer stratum corneum.@Peter Vitamin C brightens the skin.. i have experienced oxidised vitamin C will do the opposite. The skin looks darker. just from personal experience.
Zinc PCA is really new to me!Good point… “to what extent”! I am no scientist and am i don’t claim to be able to interpret the studies. I’ve read it here on Dr Sivak’s websiteShe writes“It is important not to combine Vitamin C with metallic ions such as Copper or Zinc in a formulation.”Dr Sivak studied chemistry and biology and was directed by Nobel Prize winner Dr Luis Leloir.@Peter regarding Uncover Ascorbyl Tetraisopalmitate + Niacinamide.I have seen many formulations containing a mix of Multi V and it is possible if the pH is in the right range for the actives. L Ascorbic Acid is unstable and effective at a higher pH.– Niacinamide requires pH 4-6– Ascorbyl Tetraisopalmitate requires pH 5.5How the vitamin C derivative and Niacinamide is accepted with minimal irritation could be because the % of the actives are no where as high. I don’t think they added 10% Niacinamide. Any idea how high it is? Also 5% Ascorbyl Tetraisopalmitate will convert to less than 5% L Ascorbic Acid. Still effective but nowhere as powerful as LAA which is the gold standard.The other point i am guessing they are combined with no issues is that the body will absorb the Niacinamide first and Ascorbyl Tetraisopalmitate will be absorbed after conversion. So there is no irritations caused. Is this on the right track?
I read on reddit that there are several who have not used high concentration of Niacinamide and/or LAA suffering from skin irritations– The Ordinary 10% Niacinamide + Zinc– The Ordinary 24% L Ascorbic Acid + HA SpheresTheir website specifically instructs people to not use the products together. B3 in AM, C at Night.Have checked the Niacinamide content in my other serums and i am over 6% already (hard to tell as some companies do not disclose the %), possibly even 10% somedays depending on which product i use in rotation. So it will be silly to use The Ordinary Niacinamide! It’ll be overdosing!Also have heard so many others who suffer irritations from using products high in Niacinamide and following with LAA.The issue is Niacinamide is an ingredient found in many products! The costs of the ingredient is cheap and it delivers excellent results.When mixing products across different brands, care need to be taken to ensure the actives are not doubled up and are compatible(what my derm says)… not everyone is aware of this.
Perhaps we should start a thread of what ingredients not to mix– For starters Benzoic Peroxide and Hydroquinone– Benzoic Peroxide & Retinol– Copper and Ascorbic Acidcheck this product
it’s a Vitamin SoupBioSensiya Rejuvenating MultiVitamin Night Time Serum, with A.B.C.D.E Vitamins, Retinol, Vitamin C, Niacinamide, Hyaluronic & Ferulic acid, 1.2ozIngredients: Purified water, Organic Aloe Barbadensis (Aloe Vera) Leaf Juice, 15% Sodium Ascorbyl Phosphate (Vitamin C), Methylsulfonylmethane (MSM), Cassia Angustifolia Seed Polysaccharide (Botanical hyaluronic acid), Niacinamide (Vitamin B3), Hamamelis Virginiana (Witch Hazel), 1.5% Retinol (Vitamin A), Organic Simmondsia Chinensis (Jojoba) Oil, Organic Rosa Canina (Rosehip) Seed Oil, Tocopherol (Vitamin E), Vitamin D, Ferulic Acid, Organic Argania Spinosa (Argan Oil), Acrylates/C10-30 Alkyl Acrylate Crosspolymer, L-Arginine, Melissa Officinalis (Melissa) Essential Oil, Boswellia Serrata (Frankincense) Essential Oil, Lupinus Albus (Lupine) protein, Actinidia Chinensis (Kiwi) Seed Oil, Passiflora incarnata (Passionfruit / Maracuja) Seed Oil, Pelargonium Graveolens (Rose Geranium) Essential Oil, Wildcrafted Camellia Sinensis (Green Tea), Panthenol (Vitamin B5), Myrciaria dubia (Camu Camu), Hippophae Rhamnoides (Seabuckthorn) Oil, Organic Rubus Idaeus (Raspberry) Seed Oil, Daucus Carota Sativa (Carrot) Seed Oil, Ethylhexyl Glycerin, Phenoxyethanol.I don’t think its wise to make a list with ingredients you shouldn’t combine. I’m not a cosmetic chemist, you are not a cosmetic chemist, and most importantly most people on the internet are no cosmetic chemists. Making a list is not wise, because we don’t want to spread around incorrect information, and there are too many interactions and stabilizing techniques to just say ingredient A can’t be combined with ingredient B.Ascorbic Acid and Niacinamide are both very potent actives. Niacinamide is usually added around 0.2%-2%, that’s for let’s say 90% of the products out there. Some companies are using 5%, and today there are companies using it at 10%. The benefits of niacinamide have been documented at concentrations between 2-5%. Uncover uses 5% Ascorbyl Tetraisopalmitate and 5% Niacinamide.There is a chance of irritation if you are using ascorbic acid at a concentration above 5-10%. But for most people starting with a lower concentration and working your way up works perfectly fine. Retinol above 0.5% can be quite irritating for some people.@Peter I think it is absolutely relevant, don’t need to be a cosmetic Chemist as I am not making products. Just deciding on which products to include. It would be helpful for us if we have the Cosmetic Chemist brains here to chime in what are not compatible. Esp with the Asian Beauty trend…
Also with The Ordinary… Deciem has many products with high actives that can go wrong if someone were to combine the wrong products.
it is easy to exceed usage if 10 products each routine. Mixing & matching across different Brands may be a good way to get the best out of each manufacturer but it brings about this problem of having too much of an active ingredient eg Niacinamide, AHA,BHA, Retinol etc
The biggest issue is combing products that are not complimentary or even worse to cause a detrimental effect to the skin when used together.
Previously, companies’ did not have much actives in their products for this ever to become an issue.
The wiser consumers and trend had shifted to a new wave of being more informed and new range of products of products that are Super powerful that you could not get without a derm’a prescription.Niacinamide is probably the mildest active ingredient but lately I have seen many complaints of skin irritation. Too much of it seems to be an issue.
@Peter, love to get your thoughts of the vitamin soup product I posted earlier. It has vitamin A, B, C, D & E.
The brand forgot to say they gave vitamin F too
Looks like a really good multi tasking do all product. Say goodbye to using 10 products & simplify type…
Then you must only mention the obvious combinations, like a 1% retinol serum with a prescription retinoic acid cream. Or >10% glycolic acid with a >15% vitamin C serum, because it might be irritating. If you want to add combinations like copper and vitamin c on such a list, because you read on the internet they can’t be combined, many people will interpret it the wrong way. And we don’t even know for sure if it really is a problem in real life situations. You already started to think matrixyl contained Copper, and Copper PCA has the same effect on Vitamin C. You can only mention it if we really know to what extend, and in what time frame, an ingrediënt influences another ingrediënt, or more importantly how the whole product influences another product. A product with a low pH will cause hydrolysis of Niacinamide, but it doesn’t mean you can’t use both salicylic acid and a niacinamide cream at night for example. Or benzoic acid combined with Vitamin C in a cream, is no problem, but you could start to believe otherwise if you start searching on the internet. It’s not about if we are going to formulate a product, it’s about the fact we don’t have the exact information. And if there is a study which states a certain molecule may destabilize an ingrediënt in a product, it doesn’t necessarily mean it is a problem. But if we have good quality scientific studies (so no websites or dermatologists advice), stating a certain ingrediënt shouldn’t be combined with another one it might be an option to mention it.
The Biosensiya certainly contains a lot of goodies, 1.5% retinol is really high. Is the product completely airless, it just looks like a pump dispenser. Especially retinol can only be used in airless packaging. The product does contain some problematic essential oils.
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