The Ordinary

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Learn what is really real, in an industry full of fake › Forums › Ask the Beauty Brains › The Ordinary

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  • December 20, 2016 at 8:45 pm #96872
    preciousia
    Member

    @Peter

    So far…

    MAP – best in terms of usability, compatible for day/night
    TA – best in terms of effectiveness

    Winner: TA

    December 20, 2016 at 9:07 pm #96874
    Peter
    Member

    @preciousia

    I think that’s my conclusion as well. I find the light cream formula of the 10% MAP very easy to apply. The 20% TA is somewhat more difficult to apply because of its liquid texture, but I think this is a better penetrating form of vitamin C with a much higher potency, while it’s totally non-irritating. Perhaps I will use the 23% once in a while on the evenings.
    Have your read the post by Brandon Truaxe, stating that Vitamin C can increase acne and congestion? He really is directing people towards his NIOD products, stating Vitamin C is useless and Exfoliants are bad for your skin. 
    I am interested in some of the NIOD products and the Hylamide High-Efficiency Cleaner. The NIOD SS, NIOD SDSM and NIOD MM look interesting, although I can’t find information on all ingredients. 
    February 21, 2017 at 6:48 am #97016
    preciousia
    Member

    After some detective work. The buffet 30ml is indeed 30ml. just exactly so. Not much more.

    February 21, 2017 at 6:58 am #97017
    preciousia
    Member

    Top row: contains 4 bottles with dropper bottles swapped for pumps for convenience/user friendly usage
    Bottom left, you see an airless bottle for the Ordinary Buffet i decanted earlier.  
    I found an easier way to decant as i feel the same way about dropper bottles as Caroline Hirons. In her posts, Brandon Truaxe responded with the reasons why they use dropper bottles.

    ps: the caps are from my Skin Actives serum. Perfect fit. I did measure it is 20mm. In case if anyone else is keen. something like .this


    No guarantees they fit though.

    ps: yep i am using lots of Ordinary currently… Lactic acid & Buffet are my fave now.

    February 23, 2017 at 9:09 am #97031
    preciousia
    Member

    I have left a review of 9 Ordinary products I have tried since October from herehttps://reddit.com/r/AsianBeauty/comments/5vokpw/review_deciem_the_ordinary_line_tried_8_products/?st=IZI5ZETO&sh=6cce2e21

    February 23, 2017 at 11:06 am #97034
    preciousia
    Member

    I have good had better skin. Until I tried Deciem.

    so far i have tried:

    • Alpha Arbutin 2% + HA,
    • Niacinamide 10% + Zinc 1%
    • Azelaic Acid Suspension 10%
    • Advanced Retinoid 2%
    • Vitamin C Suspension 23% + HA Spheres 2%
    • Magnesium Ascorbyl Phosphate Solution 10%
    • Ascorbyl Tetraisopalmitate Solution 20% in Vitamin F
    • Lactic Acid 10% + HA 2%
    • Buffet
    Tried in their showroom Vitamin C Ascorbyl Glucoside Solution 12%

    Full review here
    February 23, 2017 at 11:18 am #97035
    preciousia
    Member

    to respond to tanoshiiki

    >You mention you’ve used better Vitamin C. Can you please elaborate which products?
    I’m replying from a personal capacity based on my experience. Bear in mind, I do not have any science background.

    FIRST. LAA is the gold standard. not Anhydrous. LAA in water. Always have been always will be. Backed by a multitude of journals. THE BEST. Problem? Stability.

    I make my own LAA in Water fresh. LAA+Kojic Acid has been researched and it is amazing. Never seen commercially due to the double whammy instability of the 2 combined. for DIY… it’s ok. i don’t have to worry about shelf life since i can whip a new batch. So of course, just like the research have proven. This is cheapest and best. 

    I use Vitamin C derivatives as well as LAA is pretty harsh to use frequently especially daily. Especially last year when i was adjusting from retinol to prescription tretinoin. All harsh actives that are damn effective.

    For the best vitamin C derivative… it is still my dermatologist’s Vitamin C which i used for over 10 years, using SAP+MAP. It’s almost $200 and really not worth it. Stable Effective.  MAP has limited solubility in water…. max 15% SAP’s solubility is better, so you can include more in. from my homework MAP is better than SAP. Since he retired and sold the practice, prices has gone up, then up, and up again (way above inflation rates). The new derms are awful. They told my sister to use Vitamin A in the day and stop using it when she complained of dry skin + PIH scars.
    So far i really like some options commercially i tried on iHerb… American products. Good prices and they deliver results. One is Mad hippie. Another is White Egret. that I have used and emptied both of them. Texture is nicer, more user friendly/compatible with layering with other ingredients. I got Melano in my queue to try. So i shall see… but since i don’t need the derivative so much… my experience is really limited.

    One i tried on ebay claim to have 30% L Ascorbic Acid + HA. Hoax. I tested* it. There was little or no Vitamin C in that product. Maximum solubility of LAA is 33% (if i remember correctly). 30% seems like white washing. I contacted the seller. The seller said he got it from his supplier and his supplier did not respond… for a while i followed up. Just to keep an eye for the rest of the aussie consumers who don’t know better. I told him to remove the 30% claim… it took perhaps 2 months to get him to remove it from the heading… then from the photo. misleading. Amazon and eBay are full of these small timers who white wash. 
    * tested using a university science experiment that originally is meant for testing Vitamin C content in fresh juice/packaged preserved juice and another drink i forget.


    So in comparison with my “limited experience”… The Ordinary Vitamin C. I tried 3 out of 4. 4th i tested in the Deciem store. 2 will clog me. only 2 i could use. the one i did use recommended for pigmentation performed poorer than the other vitamin C on iHerb which is cheaper. Mad Hippie cost a bit more but i got it at a discount during their sale. approx 40% off RRP.

    Hope this helps.
    February 23, 2017 at 12:30 pm #97036
    preciousia
    Member

    to respond to tanoshiiki

    >You mention you’ve used better Vitamin C. Can you please elaborate which products?
    I’m replying from a personal capacity based on my experience. 

    FIRST. LAA is the gold standard. Not Anhydrous. LAA in water. Always have been always will be. Backed by a multitude of journals. THE BEST. Problem? Stability.

    I make my own LAA Serum. LAA+Kojic Acid has been researched and it is amazing. Never seen commercially due to the double whammy instability of the 2 combined. for DIY… it’s ok. I don’t have to worry about shelf life since I can whip a new batch. So of course, just like the research have proven. This is cheapest and best. 

    I use Vitamin C derivatives as well as LAA is pretty harsh to use frequently especially daily. LAA is similar to a mild chemical peel due to its low pH. Especially last year when I was adjusting from retinol to prescription tretinoin. All harsh actives that are damn effective.

    For the best Vitamin C derivative product…my dermatologist’s private label Vitamin C which I used for over 10 years, Using SAP+MAP. It’s almost $200 and really not worth it. Stable, Effective, excellent product, excellent packaging. Faultless really. 

    Since he retired and sold the practice, prices have gone up, then up, and up again (way above inflation rates). The new derms are awful. They told my sister to use Vitamin A in the day and stop using it when she complained of dry skin + PIH scars. No surprise My barometer has been set high by the good doctor.

    So far I really like some options commercially I tried on iHerb… American products. Good prices and they deliver results. 
    • Mad Hippie. review
    • White Egret. review note the product is repackaged. 

    I have used and emptied both of them. The texture is nicer for both products, more user-friendly/compatible with layering with other ingredients. I think Mad Hippie which is more serum like is better for spring/summer and White Egret is great for hydration… somehow maybe that 72 Ionic Sea Minerals from the Great Salt lake seem to be really skin softening /hydrating. Recommended several others White Egret. One of the girls I recommended on another forum, she tried White Egret and left an amazing review for this product. I recognise her nick, because it is the same as the forum. lol


    The one I tried on eBay claim to have 30% L-Ascorbic Acid + HA. Hoax. I tested* it. There was little or no Vitamin C in that product. The maximum solubility of LAA is 33% source Standard deviation varies. Sometimes as low as 28%. So at 30% it will crystallise.  Furthermore, they included HA. IT CANNOT POSSIBLY BE 30%. I contacted the seller sharing my science experiment results. The seller claimed ignorance and said he got it from his supplier and his supplier did not respond… for a while I followed up. Civic duty. I told him to remove the 30% claim if he doesn’t hear back from the supplier. it took perhaps 2 months to get him to remove 30% Vitamin C from the heading… then from the photo. misleading.  More 
    * tested using a science experiment from the University of Illinois that originally is meant for testing Vitamin C content in fresh juice/packaged preserved juice and another drink I forget.

    I got another Vitamin C, Japanese Melano in my queue to try. Using the other fat soluble controversial Vitamin C. So I shall see…

    So in comparison with my “limited experience”:
    The Ordinary Vitamin C. I tried 3 out of 4. The 4th, I tested in the Deciem store. 2 will clog ;) me. only 2 I could use. The MAP one I did use recommended for pigmentation performed poorer than the other vitamin C on iHerb which is cheaper. Mad Hippie cost a bit more but I got it at a discount during their sale. approx 40% off RRP.

    I tested the Ordinary Vitamin C because I want to discover for myself the best Vitamin C derivative to use on my LAA off days. However, i found that their formulations are probably made by the monkeys they hire. Simply bananas.

    Hope this helps.:)
    February 24, 2017 at 9:07 am #97046
    preciousia
    Member

    Apologies for the repeat posts. Technical issues here.

    The link above with my review of 10 The Ordinary product is lost. links below:
     
    February 24, 2017 at 10:14 am #97048
    pazzaglia
    Member

    You’re not the only one having technical problems – I don’t see @ tanoshiiki ‘s original question.

    What a great job you’ve done with the decanting – even the labeling!!  Love those little screw-on mini-pumps. DECIEM should just sell them seperately so whomever is interested, whether it “sprays” out or not, can purchase them.  I would!!!
    Ciao,
    L
    February 24, 2017 at 10:16 am #97049
    pazzaglia
    Member

    P.S.  I gave in and bought another 23% Vit. C.  I hate it, but I noticed that when I slap it on my face becomes super-plump.  Like maybe the HA absorbs better from a water-less formula? Maybe it’s the slapping?!?! ; )

    February 24, 2017 at 11:48 am #97053
    preciousia
    Member

    rest assured. i have blocked on my  tanoshiiki based on fear. and i don’t really know and thanks, i haven’t checked the dynamic changes of the referenced thread. you confirmed something for me. thanks. deep breath

    i can confirm i had unauthorised attempts to access my personal journal with IP address linked to philipines. 
    **** oh well. Live. Laugh. Learn

    LOL Packaging is my crux. Thanks ;) sorry. Deciem packaging gets no love from me honey. reference 

    February 24, 2017 at 12:03 pm #97054
    preciousia
    Member

    The Ordinary Vitamin C issues (please YMMV)

    2 of the Vitamin C Ordinary has a comedogenic rating ingredient of 4. The ingredient is number 1 in the fat soluble vitamin C which i suspected is the best all along. I knew by my homework ATIIP/Tetra C/Ascorbyl Tetraisopalmitate is going to outperform all of the Vitamin C. However, I do not know how my skin will convert this Vitamin C to Asorbic Acid (this variable differs person to person). I don’t like oils. I prefer water based serums. My next choice would have been MAP. 
    Both formulations are problematic. SIgh.
    Coconut alkanes = comedogeic rating 4 
    * For some (like me with cloggy skin), a single ingredient with comedogenic rating 4 MEANS that it will clog me up. It does not matter the concentration of the product. more on this terrific blog post 
    MAP is a water based serum. It is number 1 in erms of Vitamin C replacement. However the problem is solubility (15%) best in a water based serum for absorption. Deciem’s TO MAP take was an emulsion. Contradiction to what TO founder said. reference , Caroline Hirons bog
    The only water based serum by Deciem was AA2G which TBB has ranked poorer than SAP which is ranked lower than MAP.
    confused? i’m not. Stay with me.
    The best based on trade journals (both water/fat soluble) and deemed the safest is Tetra C which is sabotaged by the faulty ingredient. 
    Out of the 10 Vitamin C Asorbic Acid and esters i have found and researched, the best is LAA in H20 however, problematic because of stability.
    imho if i were to rank them 
    1)  LAA in water
    2) Tetra C (fat soluble)
    3) MAP in water (15% max solubility, neutral pH, can get stinkky/change colour)
    4) SAP
    5) AA2G (easier to formulate with up to 70% solubility, more stable pH)
    6) LAA anhydrous
    THE MOST popular one is LAA in Anhydrous that TO tries to sell. It is problematic and quite questionable as they released 2 formulae. I tried the predecessor. The predecessor worked. Then they changed the ingredient. I was not observant, my beauty geek friend alerted me the photo of my haul on my blog showed different ingredients to the current formulae. I praised Deciem for being fast to react to customers’ feedback. Though i think why didn’t they properly test the packaging before releasing it. Why did they change the formulae without telling people, or did i miss an announcement? The people in reddit pointed out the ingredients are different. It did not contain silicone, so i was intrigued. Silicone has semi-occlusive properties which will slow/minimise absorption of LAA in anhyrdrous formulae. I analysed each ingredient and i was surprised that i had such a hard time understanding INCI. I need to study more i suppose. I usually can breeze through ingredients list. It seems that the ingredients of the initial formulation i used are kindda related to silicone. Silica derivative. 
    Deciem LAA did not contained comedogenic ingredients (at first). The original dropper bottle packaging was an epic fail. Not because i am biased (which i am coz i think dropper bottles are annoying). Obviously everyone agreed, Deciem relented and released a new packaging. It’s all over www if you search. Little did i realise that Deciem changed the packaging and also the formula. I thought alright, tube is better than dropper bottle. Though most tubes are smallest 2oz.. 1 oz tube in that dimensions raises a lot of problems. Tough to squeeze at the end. Hell, at least i save a decant. I wasn’t even the 1st to try. I was a little late to the party as others before me had grabbed it 2 months earlier.  
    Now what are Canada INCI laws? Any variance from the rest of the world? like Korea /Austalia/USA?
    The new formula has Coconut alkanes in the 5th place of the ingredient list.
    Old: ASCORBIC ACID, C13-15 ALKANE, ISODECYL NEOPENTANOATE, DODECANE, ISONONYL ISONONANOATE, ACRYLATES/ETHYLHEXYL ACRYLATE CROSSPOLYMER, ETHYLENE/PROPYLENE/STYRENE COPOLYMER, SILICA DIMETHYL SILYLATE, ETHYLHEXYL PALMITATE, COCO-CAPRYLATE/CAPRATE, SODIUM HYALURONATE, GLUCOMANNAN, BUTYLENE/ETHYLENE/STYRENE COPOLYMER, BISABOLANE, TRIHYDROXYSTEARIN, BHT. source (not updated i think) photo

    New: Ascorbic Acid, Squalane, Isodecyl Neopentanoate, Isononyl Isononanoate, Coconut Alkanes, Ethylene/Propylene/Styrene Copolymer, Ethylhexyl Palmitate, Silica Dimethyl Silylate, Sodium Hyaluronate, Glucomannan, Coco-Caprylate/Caprate, Butylene/Ethylene/Styrene Copolymer, Acrylates/Ethylhexyl Acrylate Crosspolymer, Trihydroxystearin, BHT. source
    did i miss a thing. Had deciem announced a formula change?
    ps: sorry for the hot mess. The technicality of this forum is difficult for me. 
    @Randy can i donate anything to upgrade the technology? And also so you backup (not that you are not doing it already), i don’t want another 2009 to happen! *wink*
    Just read TBB guide, that’ll help.  
    February 24, 2017 at 2:37 pm #97055
    preciousia
    Member

    Having a ball chimping around with the imps. 

    :-*

    “snacking on peanuts as i am typing this.”
    February 28, 2017 at 8:34 am #97096
    preciousia
    Member

    Before I go away for 40 days, I like to share this interesting posts on Science-washing ie DECIEM group. There are several famous bloggers featured in the discussion as well as renowned beauty geeks from the community. Enjoy :)

    https://www.reddit.com/r/AsianBeauty/comments/52fbxo/niod_skin_science_and_my_issues_with/?st=IZP9Q38A&sh=e025cd50

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